Evil Backwards

Posted on 07. Jul, 2011 by B3 in News

Last year, after much effort, I climbed Evil Backwards V14 at Lincoln Lake. This remains the hardest bit of climbing I have ever done. What has not remained is the climb itself.

After I repeated it I expected others to downrate it, perhaps for competitive reasons, or perhaps because they felt that it wasn’t that hard. Clearly grades are subjective, and while I felt it was harder than anything I had previously climbed, I knew that it might not hold at V14. I felt some reassurance when visiting Finnish climber Nalle Hukkataival repeated the problem in 3 days and said “It’s just not V13.” This year a number people repeated the line very quickly, commenting on 8a.nu that it was perhaps soft V13. I was a little surprised and I went back to the problem to check it out for myself. It wasn’t clear if their comments were motivated by a change in beta, a change in the hold, or their honest or competitive opinion of the difficulty. After talking to several climbers it was evident that there was no change in beta and I decided to examine the problem itself. I noticed that the right hand crimp, in which the crux revolves around, had gotten bigger. When I took the time to grab the hold properly, I felt something I hadn’t ever felt before, the back of the seam. I grabbed my shoes and repeated the move in a few tries. It felt easier. It is unclear why this hold changed. Perhaps it had just seen more attention, or perhaps someone had “cleaned” it again. Oh well, I thought. Those things happen. It’s a nice thought to have such a personal achievement “set in stone” so to speak, but unfortunately the nature of bouldering at Lincoln Lake is that problems are often changing.

A few weeks later the problem changed dramatically. The first left hand hold that you jump out to went from being a sloping edge to a full-pad incut, dropping the difficulty down to V12. Apparently it had been “cleaned” with a paint scraper and a screwdriver. I’m not sure there is any logic or intelligent thought in the actions of an individual who feels the need to basically chip a problem that had already been climbed by a number of people. It hasn’t taken away from my ascent. I strongly think that Evil Backwards, in the state I climbed it, was the hardest problem I had ever done. It does however take away from other climbers who were looking for that same challenge, and that saddens me more than anything. I understand as well as anyone the exfoliating nature of the rock at Lincoln Lake, but using a screwdriver and a paint scraper on a problem that has been climbed by at least 8 climbers is unacceptable. Please, take the time to clean things properly and when they are clean, leave them alone.

74 Responses to “Evil Backwards”

Nietzsche

07. Jul, 2011

Jamie,
Maybe you can elaborate on what classifies a climb as being “cleaned” or when it is “finished.” I understand that some climbers do a rock climb with that climb in a certain state, but saying that that makes the climb clean seems arbitrary. There are loads of examples of problems that undergo cleaning after an ascent (even at Lincoln Lake) that someone scrubs a hold that someone else didn’t see (ahem… MANDALA), etc… and it completely changes the nature of the climb, or that the changes with erosion (i.e. the snow that fills the cave in the winter). I am not trying to subtract anything from your ascent, but using a paint scraper and a screwdriver, is at times, acceptable at LL during the cleaning process. So I am a bit confused by your post… are you saying that when the hold was retro cleaned its was “chipped” or are you saying that DW and DG (and others) did not properly clean the climb? Can’t arguments be made for both?
chad greedy

07. Jul, 2011

what are you saying ? i own both those tools but am not a tool like you .. i have never touched evil backwards with my screw driver … or made any of those holds better … i in fact I let you borrow them the other day to clean the sit ? i showed you those holds ? you are full of shit and are trying to stir up shit ! get fuct asshole !!! you dont know shit !!! it was 8b when you did it … egotistical prick !
JamesO

07. Jul, 2011

I agree with everything in your post, and it probably feels good to vent some.

However I believe that to actually fight chipping, which seems to be making a comeback, chippers need to be called out. Community pressure may have some impact, but not without direction.

It is truely unacceptable. Chipping is never the answer. If a hold is loose, wait for it to break off, the hold on Slashface stayed there for quite some time. If it crumbles when you climb on it, so be it. But it is not for an individual to decide “This will crumble” and use excessive force to make that a reality.
m

07. Jul, 2011

it’s sad to see people ruining forever something they should be respecting and be amazed by, especially when it’s done for petty reasons. chipping down to your level something which should inspire you, that’s a tragedy.
sidepull

07. Jul, 2011

Jamie,

This is sad news. I can’t understand the chipping, aggressive-cleaning mentality. As I’ve mentioned in the past, I don’t gyms, which are raising the current and future generations of potential outdoor climbers, do enough to educate climbers on ethics.

My problem with gyms aside, I wonder how much 8a.nu’s “brave and humble” policy has played into this. The problems at Lincoln aren’t attracting gumbies and they received a lot of attention last year. It seems that 8a.nu is more likely to reward climbers for reporting low grades (note the current debate about Ethan Pringle in Rocklands raging on their boards right now). In that case, climbers might actually get more publicity for making the problem downgrade-able. Put simply, our social media and the desire to create attention by down-grading (since attention by setting a new standard is now so hard to come by and met with furious cynicism) have possibly created incentives for this type of behavior.

You’re a better man than I am. I agree that your achievement isn’t diminished, but just reading your story made me pissed. You’ll never be able to climb that problem, the way it was again and whether you blame gyms, social media (cough* 8a.nu), or the personal psychology of the chipper, it pisses me off. Climbing, as a global community really needs to stop this.
seth

07. Jul, 2011

Freakin people. Just tell them to dremmel it next time and save themselves the time.

Whatevs J- when you sent it it was what it was, and now, it is what it is; another fleeting moment in the minutia of our lives.

Movin on to bigger and better things.
Jay Droeger

07. Jul, 2011

The Turning Point has gotten easier and easier since I first did it, thanks to some aggressive cleaning and a fancy heel-toe. However, with ding-dongs wire brushing the holds, the slopers are getting quite slick… it may return to its original grade! So don’t give up hope, Jamie, idiocracy might return some things to an original state.
Mojo

07. Jul, 2011

Despicable. I assume that this individual has not come forward, because chipping is the act of a coward.
tendon

07. Jul, 2011

Yesss…..real drama!! better watch out, CG’s gonna get ya.

Sooooo are you accusing CG or not? i love this silly shit.

Cmon, point fingers! call people out….don’t be all passive aggressive…..get some!

so psyched for a rumble at the wolvo,
i’d show up just for that!
AB

07. Jul, 2011

Jamie

Maybe the holds just feel bigger because you got stronger!

I climb with some (very) old people who return to routes they once did in their heydays, and they now SWEAR that holds have broken or that the route has gotten harder because it’s greasier … basically any explanation they can come up with to justify their current state of weakness.

just a thought …

Or someone chipped it to make it easier in order to post it on their 8a scorecards with a downgrade.

I guess that’s possible too
matt

07. Jul, 2011

Wow. Call me ignorant, but I never knew a paint scraper and a screw driver could or were used to “clean” holds.

It sounds as though the term cleaning needs to be redefined.

I climb a lot on TX limestone and and I hope I never see someone with a paint scraper much less a screw driver (Not sure what they could do to bullet hard pockets?) in hand!

That might bring out the worst in me to see that!

I just got back from CO btw and it was my first time climbing there. I actually was welcomed by some climbers up at the Satellites. Awesome local spot! I guess you guys don’t hate all Texans after all. Ha! Thanks for the beta Ben!
jabroni

07. Jul, 2011

Sidepull is right and I blame Jens and 8a.nu, the site often called 8a.spray, 8a.poo, etc. If Jens could ‘bravely and humbly’ stfu, we’d all benefit. Downgrading is the new first ascent.

You’re not strong if you climb a V15, you’re strong if you rate a V13 as V10 and note how many other V10s you’ve climbed that were still harder than the V13. If you’re exceptionally cool, perhaps you can record a video showing how you could have flashed it, but got it done second go, and that is soooo like not V13 because you never get V13s second go.

There is a constant implied, if not open criticism of first ascensionists in how the upper echelon climbers play the game nowadays. Because frankly, that’s all it is – a game, even if it has implications for your bank balance. People seem to be much more motivated to climb and downrate other people’s problems – some of these guys have probably never explored or done a first ascent! Fred Nicole, the most inspiring and prolific first ascensionist (ever?), is having his name dragged through the mud almost posthumously (in the sense of his super-hard-cranking-media-attention-grabbing first ascent career), all in the name of the mythical ‘global levelling of grades’. (spit)

Rating a climb according to how hard it felt is a good idea. Doing it on 8a.nu is a bad idea. Why aren’t people recording personal grades on mountainproject.com or other online guides? Because the media doesn’t look there. And it’s not going to generate press unless at least 100,000 people get your diatribe about how wrong the grade is, or soulful insight into how grades really don’t matter – all the while still recording merrily on 8a.nu all the climbs you might be doing.

Arguably the ‘top’ boulderers, Paul Robinson, Daniel Woods and Nalle have all been going about this sensibly. They give personal opinions, sometimes they change their minds, they do think grades matter, they would all say they’re not perfect. Then you have a cadre of other climbers who seem to be benefiting from downrating. And we’re all starting to wonder if people are looking to make careers from downrating, because it certainly seems that way sometimes. And a third cadre of impressive, intelligent and unaffected people like Kevin Jorgeson, who go out to climb hard, fun, scary things and haven’t been sucked into the bullcrap.

My challenge: stop recording your climbs on 8a.nu, even with the logbook option. Record them on a proper guide. Sure, tell the real media, like climbingnarc, what you are doing. Start sucking the oxygen out of the bonfire of idiocy that fuels 8a.nu.
cardboard_dog

07. Jul, 2011

It really is a shame, but the only way to stop the polluting is to call out the dude who did it. Democrats rarely call out Republicans on their BS and as a result alot of dirty polititions have gotten away with far worse crimes than a little adultery in the oval office.

Chipping is ghey in the first place, but chipping a problem at a pristine wilderness area, super kind like Evans?? If anyone ever earned themselves a beatdown it’s the person who chips in that area.

If all the weakmos who can’t send would just take steroids instead of chipping, Evil Backwards would still be a V14, and Echale would still be unclimbed.
Mojo

07. Jul, 2011

Another account of the situation can be read here:

http://p-alexander.blogspot.com/2011/06/ice-cream-cupcakes-pizza-and-beer.html
SocratesFace

07. Jul, 2011

Cleaning: preserving the longevity of a boulder problem by removing loose material.

For analogical argument, let’s imagine a new project named “The Thinker”. It’s a theoretical new V12 in RMNP, and sits before Auguste Rodin, our ethical boulderer, who spends a great deal of time, considering the great scheme of things, with great detail.

Auguste Rodin, hammering away with “broader, more universal terms,” is to canon artistry as the energetic boulderer, brushing off only that which may harm the climber during a climb – moss, fragile flakes, what is in essence just choss – retaining the rock’s natural aesthetics, and developing a safe-ish landing…is to canon bouldering.

Failing to understand “broader, more universal terms”, if a thoughtless Auguste Rodin ignores the canons, he chops his man down at the knees – perhaps literally. Now The Thinker is broken, his elbow hangs suspended without the iconic left limb. And the boulder problem – no longer having that one detail that made it so hard – indeed, made Evil Backwards a good V14 – too, is broken… So what was once “bigger than ourselves” can no longer be enjoyed by boulderers for the thought-provoking canonical feature it once had….because of someone’s paint scraper.
Praxeology

08. Jul, 2011

Is Chad Greedy being serious? I really can’t tell?

Anyways…….It is really simply folks. using a simple animal hair brush is all that is needed. If you need more than that. Leave the fuckin’ thinkg alone. Why would anybody have a screwdriver and paint scrapper at a bouldering crag. Are you fuckin’ crazy.
Jabroni

08. Jul, 2011

Lost me at analogical

Let’s be fair, if someone chips a new climb, that’s one thing. If someone chips an existing, stand-out, max stars problem, they should be lynched. HUBRIS! The fact is, even if you chip the crap out of a V14 and make it V12 and climb it, you’re still not a f*&^#n V14 climber – very few people are.
travelin_jones

08. Jul, 2011

i suspect that this is a better problem for the cleaning that’s been done.

just another rock crumbling, in the grand scheme its not a big deal.

can we get some uncut vid of the greedy v. emerson beatdown? pure gold…
WOW

08. Jul, 2011

It’s funny that Jamie didn’t point any fingers and Chad was the defensive one. Looks like someone feels guilty. Chad, how do you know if it was V13 when Jamie climbed it? Have you done it, NO. Maybe you can now that the hold is bigger though. Looks like your screwdriver probably got a little close and personal with The Game as well. This is true progression in the sport. Stop training and start chipping to make it easier!!!!
jabroni

08. Jul, 2011

How could a V14 becoming a V12 be a ‘better problem for the cleaning that’s been done’?

That’s chipping, it’s not trundling blocks, nor I suspect is it defoliating flakes that were about to go anyway…

Also if Chad weighs as much as Jamie, going by the UFC, all we’d see is a lot of fairy-punches being thrown and never any knockout.
Hmm

08. Jul, 2011

I kinda doubt that that was really Chad . . . or that he was being serious if it was . . . don’t be so gullible, people.
TK

08. Jul, 2011

I always cringe a bit when I hear folks using those tools to ‘clean’ boulders…

so….lapis bushes and screwdrivers eh? A strange dichotomy…
Pat

08. Jul, 2011

Actually, the piece that was removed from the left hand most likely would have come out eventually. I had been trying that move a few days before it was “cleaned”, and thought I felt it move a bit, as did another climber who was there. I definitely do NOT agree with using a screwdriver to remove the piece, however. Also, how is this a more serious action than the holds on Small Arms being broken off with car keys last Summer? At least Evil Backwards is still climbable.
slabdyno

08. Jul, 2011

how do you know what it was cleaned with?

it obviously took away from your ascent if you felt the need to write a self-righteous post about it.

cliffnotes:

I sent evil backwards when it was v14. now its v12 but what i did was v14, i’m a v14 climber and the fact that its chipped down doesn’t matter.

discuss.
B3

08. Jul, 2011

@ Pat, because the rock will eventually all come apart, are people then justified in using screwdrivers on every bit of it?

@Hmm Chad most certainly wrote the comment.
Pat

08. Jul, 2011

Jamie, I explicitly said that I did NOT agree with using a screwdriver to remove the piece. Obviously no one would be justified in using screwdrivers on every bit of the climb, I can only imagine a few scenarios where ANY use of a screwdriver would be acceptable. What would your opinion have been if this had happened at the beginning of last summer, prior to the problem’s first ascent?
B3

08. Jul, 2011

@ Pat I know, I just wanted to listen to your defense. Well defining what is acceptable before the FA is a tricky thing, and perhaps the topic of a new post. I’m not sure if metal implements should ever be used, although they are sometimes clearly helpful at a place with chossy rock like Lincoln Lake.
wolak

08. Jul, 2011

It seems that some aggressive cleaning techniques may be appropriate for turning chossy rock into fun problems… but, once a problem is FAed (even if the first ascentionist did a bad job cleaning), then no more cleaning except with a non-wire brush….
Praxeology

08. Jul, 2011

@B3….

I have been climbing in Little Cottonwood Canyon for nearly 10 years now…..and never felt the need to bring a screwdriver or a paint scraper along, despite the rock being very similar to that of LIncoln Lake. Leave the Metal at home. If it is suppose to come off….It will with a little time and climbing.

This is simply just one of those things we all must make a stand against. Even if you sometimes may feel that it is neccesary from time to time.

That is just my take on this……….
james

09. Jul, 2011

small arms…..why? why did it get broken? i did not even get to try it….car keys to break the holds? I knew kids who ran laps on it without hold flexing on them
DangerJones

09. Jul, 2011

This incident was terrible. And the piece that was removed was NOT going to come out. The word “cleaning” is the wrong word to use in this situation. The problem was chipped because someone wanted to do the climb but not spend the time to get strong enough to do it properly. I can not for the life of me understand why someone would do that. I wish whoever is responsible would just own up. This sort of action can not be tolerated. It gives us as climbers a bad name. C’mon SON!
bongowurm

09. Jul, 2011

Question is, does Evil Backwards make a better V12 than V14? Does this benefit more climbers in the long run? That is the stance of chippers, the ends justify the means.

Since when does a world class spot need such aggro cleaning procedures anyway? I would love to see some before and after cleaning shots of these high end projects. As an avid developer, how do you know the difference between cleaning and chipping? It is not logical to base the distinction on the FA.
Michael Rathke

10. Jul, 2011

Thanks for being so humble about this Jamie…
You will continue to downgrade and climb more actual V14 & 15′s but will slabdyno ever do the same? No because he is a drug addict
Daniel Woods

10. Jul, 2011

I went up to Lincoln Lake today and checked out Evil Backwards. I was shocked with how much larger 2 of the crux holds were. The left hand sidepull that you punch out to (crux move) was not only a half pad size bigger, but also incut. I remember this hold from last season, and it was perfectly flat and not going to break. The move is now a shorter distance and to a much larger hold. The right hand crimp allows you to fit all 4 fingers in perfectly and fits in a good half of a pad. Before, you could only fit in 3 fingers just on the lip of the hold. Dave and I did a pretty good job with cleaning this boulder and were confident that nothing could get larger (that is if you are using nylon or lapis brushes). I do not recall any “loose” pieces of rock lodged in, that threatened the hold to breaking on the climber. The climb had seen a handful of ascents and withstood multiple people working on it. The hold now is dug out and can be labeled as a “finger bucket.”
I was talking with Jamie about this situation yesterday and he mentioned that at Evil Backwards he ran into Chad, who had a paint scraper and screwdriver in hand. Chad began describing about how he was able to pry out a “loose” chunk of rock in the sidepull to make the boulder cleaner. After hearing this, I was disappointed and even more disappointed with the fact that it was a completely different problem. For those who have put up problems, there is so much pride and joy that comes into play with the whole process. With Evil Backwards, I was able to share an experience in preparing the bloc with Dave, Jimmy, and Jon. We brushed up the problem appropriately. Now a beautiful piece of rock has been enhanced, even to the eye. I do not agree with what Chad has done and I do not agree with chipping. Climbing is an art form and I now feel like this art piece has been destroyed. Many infamous climbs have been chipped and this takes away from the experience of trying what the first ascentionist climbed. What has been done cannot be erased. I strongly believe in using a wire brush only to scrape off the chossy first layer of rock (if needed), moss, or lichen. After, all you need is a lapis brush. Metal on rock significantly increases the size of holds and appearance of them over time.

DW
kdiggity

10. Jul, 2011

Alright Jamie… perfect time to weigh in. Last week I tried Endgame (your FA). Due to my shorter stature (or weakness?) I can’t lock off and reach the “lowest” crimp in the seam. But I COULD reach a micro crimp that is about 6 inches lower in the seam, which you didn’t clean before the FA. The only brushes in my bag were a worn out nylon brush and a lapis brush. I gently cleaned the “hold” and tried again and it crumbled a bit more…

SO… when I go back to try it again, what constitutes “acceptable cleaning” of that new hold? Even with “aggressive cleaning” I don’t think the hold will be usable/desirable for most other climbers, and it will not be easier beta, just alternate beta that will not change the grade. Does cleaning new holds have a different set of rules than cleaning existing holds?
Michael

10. Jul, 2011

And slabdyno, if you continue to say foolish things here I will expose you to the authorities also, along with everyone on your foolish website that also does illegal drugs.
Jasper

11. Jul, 2011

chad greedy is a kook anyways
a different pat

11. Jul, 2011

paint scrapers, SCREWDRIVERS. I’ll take some “illegal drug” using people putting up problems for real. when i clean a boulder i clean the moss off of it. i still can’t for the understand what a screwdriver would be used for ever. jamie you keep saying that there is a time when it is needed. please just for example show me one of those times. I’ll be moving out new york and over to your area soon enough i hope this shit only exists on the internet. I’m starting to think everyone of you guys has it all wrong. Altering the rock is always bad, if your justifying it then your bad too.
Carlo Traversi

11. Jul, 2011

I don’t climb at Lincoln Lake for the most part, because despite the existence of many cool boulder problems, the rock is not the best. Most of the area has been sculpted with screwdrivers, crowbars, and chisels from the beginning. As impressive as last year’s establishment of the area was in the eyes of most, I find it disheartening. In my eyes, the line between cleaning and chipping was crossed. And that’s fine, as long as you know that the problems you are climbing on are not entirely natural. However when a precedence is set, how can you validate your anger towards the same means by which a problem was initially created? I agree that the destruction of Evil Backwards is a serious loss, but due to my knowledge of the rock quality, how can we assume that the same evolution wouldn’t have occurred with natural bristles over a much longer period of time?

In my biased opinion, the complete destruction of SMALL ARMS is a much bigger loss. The problem doesn’t even go now…
slabdyno

11. Jul, 2011

Michael, shut your pie hole little boy. I was on topic unlike you. idiot.
skav

11. Jul, 2011

In ur bolderin areaz, doin illegal drugz and stealin ur wimminz.
DangerJones

11. Jul, 2011

@bongowurm. How could you ask this question? Would Realization make a better 5.13? Should Esperanza be V11 just so more people could climb it? That is outrageous. A climb, on rocks outside, is not set as in a gym and should not be made to accommodate the masses. If you want to do a rock climb get strong enough to do it. Don’t change the climb until you are happy with the outcome. Cleaning boulders is fine. You get loose rock off and yes sometimes holds change and possibly get bigger. Then you climb it and a climb becomes established. Once it is established cleaning is done. And certainly there is no modification that should be done to holds. Chipping is the worst thing you can do to a climb and Chad should be ashamed. He is not a real climber. Go to the gym if you want to change climbs and feel good about yourself. Don’t ruin climbing for other people.
boobs

12. Jul, 2011

get em
cubed

12. Jul, 2011

So what other problems are chipped at choss lake carlo?
logical

12. Jul, 2011

“how can we assume that the same evolution wouldn’t have occurred with natural bristles over a much longer period of time?”

Genius Carlo…and chipping is justified.

I’ve really been itchin’ to climb that new rig called Flux for Life, but I only climb V10…Daaad! Can I borrow your toolbox, need to speed up evolution.
m

12. Jul, 2011

well, I guess evil backwards used to be something completely different before getting into the shape we can recognize today.
by this logic, it still was a completely different thing even in its current form, before someone saw a bouldering problem in it, and called it the roof project.
I am sure evil backwards will again fade into oblivion when there won’t be anyone around to call it so, but for now that entity to which we could refer with a name, pointing to a series of arbitrary holds, it’s been altered. the experience we can make out of it has been altered, apparently for worse, and not by what we can call the natural evolution of alpine boulders, but by a screwdriver and a paint scraper. that’s kind of different, I dare say.
peter beal

12. Jul, 2011

Hi Carlo,
I have heard a number of people besides yourself claim that Small Arms doesn’t go now. However, when I tried it last year, it seemed to me that the second move could be done off the sloping rail above the start. I know this because within a few tries I was touching the sharp crimp with my left hand from the right hand on the sloping rail. Once this move is completed, the problem will go. Unless something else has broken, been removed, etc. this problem will be V13/14 tops. In my view, it will be similar to Jade in difficulty and quality. I am surprised it hasn’t been done already given the excellent line and aesthetics of the wall. The remaining holds are now totally solid.

If you want, I will go to Lincoln with you and show you what I think will be the sequence for the new version of Small Arms. In my view the Small Arms situation is in no way comparable to that of Evil Backwards.
JamesO

12. Jul, 2011

Whether Small Arms is climbable or not is speculation until it is climbed.

The wall used to be somewhat aethetic, but now it has very pronounced scars from being chipped. No where in same league as the massive Green 45.

Both situations are sad, but I assume you are somehow suggesting that the Small Arms chipping is less despicable than the chipping of Evil Backwards? Any argument there besides “It was going to break anywway” which is again speculation and unlikely given that it survived Nick Duttle.
peter beal

12. Jul, 2011

James, I think it is time to let this one go. Just a thought.
Michael

13. Jul, 2011

@Slabdyno
” Michael, shut your pie hole little boy. I was on topic unlike you. idiot. ”

why do you come here? you have nothing important, and good to comment about…ever… Lets not focus on the comments though, I just want to know why you come here…Its possible you wont reply to me, I actually hope you dont reply but if you do I hope you have something good to say because I think you come here because you like to but you dont show that, so perhaps you should show that if thats how you feel. And dont try to feed me a lie and say you have constructive criticizm because you dont. If you want to have constructive criticizm (instead of always negative) I think you can come up with something constructive.

I noticed you said You were on topic and that I wasnt, this sort of mind set is exactly the kind you have been projecting with Jamie, just some food for thought on yourself.

Also, to stand up for myself on what you said about my comment being off topic, I’m happy to show you how its on topic. I was simply saying to Jamie nice post, and very humbly put. (I was talking about his post) I shouldnt have to point that out but obviously I do since you said I was off topic. I also said he’s going to do more V14 & 15′s..This topic is about a V14, I dont know what else to say to you other than please think before posting? You have been called out 500 times here because of your negative attitude. You should take my advice about the constructive criticism and think about what you are saying before you say it because its obvious that you dont put much effort into anything you say because I think you might have something good to ad very shortly here. Thanks for saying something.
Mike