Endovalley

Posted on 18. May, 2011 by B3 in News

After writing several blog posts about the rediscovery of a nice collection of boulders in RMNP, there were several comments posted here from climbers who seemed upset about the new attention these climbs were receiving. They bring up some interesting points and I would like to bring this discussion to the forefront. The first comment came from J Seaver, who had this to say:

“I’m getting a good laugh out of all you guys. Patting each other on the back about “discovering” a “new” area that locals have been visiting and developing for half a decade. I know, I know……….our lack of double digit sending skills make our efforts inconsequential.
My giggles are tempered by sadness though. I suppose this formerly quiet, and idyllic, after-work destination for us will now go the way of Chaos Canyon. Overridden by shirtless pebblers; dozens of crashpads stuffed thoughtlessly under every boulder; a straight-up nasty scene, full of spraylords and video cameras.”

and then from DuBois:

“Everyone on this thread is missing Seavers’ point. Some hard #$%#$ went undocumented here, because you know what? Little rock climbs are very forgettable….Bunch of slack-jawed,”uber-stoked”, beta hungry, little ^&^%#. Please, don’t turn every #$%$#@ boulder into “the next big thing”. Leave something to the imagination, and to nature.”

and then from Nate A:

“Is it really that hard to see why a local might be upset about all this? Too many people hanging out in a small area = high impact. Unfortunately, this is all to commonplace at most bouldering areas as a result of lots of people lingering in one area dragging pads around and a very liberal use of chalk. My guess would be that if I visited Endovalley this afternoon already the impact would be drastic compared to the last visit I made, prior to the area recieving publicity. I find this sad, but expected it would happen eventually with the lack an approach guarding this area.”

Last year I met with three rangers from RMNP for almost 2 hours to discuss climbing and bouldering in the Park, in preparation for the forthcoming guidebook (which they were very much in support of). The ranger who I talked most closely with was Jess Asmussen, a climbing ranger. He is an avid boulderer himself, and has climbed in Upper and Lower Chaos as well as Emerald Lake. He was very aware of everything that was going on and he was very helpful. I felt better about bouldering in the Park after our meeting.

This year a good friend of mine, Herm Fiessner, ran into Jess on the road up to Endovalley. Jess was there with another ranger and they walked around the cluster together. They found nothing wrong with what has gone on so far, and told Herm, as they told me, they think bouldering is an acceptable form of usage. They reminded Herm not to stash pads, and to keep the place clean. They were upset by a fire ring, but Herm assured them (I would assume correctly) that the ring was not built by climbers. If you see Jess at the boulders, he is a very friendly guy, and I would encourage you to say hi and talk to him. I would also encourage you not to stash your pad and to keep the place clean. Secret or not, trash at the bouldering area is unacceptable.

So, if the rangers deem our actions acceptable, and everyone who pays an entrance fee has the right to be there, is there a legitimate point being made by the “locals”? I personally have visited the Park over 500 times in the past 11 years. Does this constitute me being local? Would I be a local if I visited a 1000 times, and would that give me any more say than someone who hadn’t? If somehow I camped within the Park boundary would I then be more local than the locals living in Estes Park? Perhaps these are ridiculous questions, but they speak to the idea of the ownership claim many climbers make when they find, clean, ascend or live near new problems. I think these questions have risen around the country at various areas and they bring up some interesting points. Are there some areas which should remain off the internet radar, or is the web too pervasive to avoid? Will the internet destroy the concept of secret bouldering areas? Does the younger generation of climbers even care to have secret areas?

Clearly bouldering in Endovalley is here to stay. Thoughts?

As a post script, my original offer stands. I would love to hear about any problems old or new that have been climbed in the region, as my interest in documenting the accurate history of the area remains.

80 Responses to “Endovalley”

adam strong

18. May, 2011

yo jamie- i know all 3 of those guys, kindly stop uprating their f.a.’s. you are merely a puny boulderer, and not near man enough for the “big stone”. don’ mess.
polaropposite

18. May, 2011

Try to understand that not everyone sees bouldering as the be-all, end-all reason for existence on this earth, some of us regard it merely as a pleasant pastime when the real thing isn’t available that particular day, and therefore don’t see the need to publicize areas WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE REMAIN INFREQUENTLY VISITED.

Also the irony of “Will the internet destroy the concept of secret bouldering areas?” seems to have escaped you, it is not the internet which will destroy these areas, IT IS YOU.
campusman

18. May, 2011

yo jamie – been a while since I posted but I thought this topic was up my ally

word
B3

18. May, 2011

I asked the question because of the irony, not because it escaped me. I’m not sure there is evidence I have “destroyed” any bouldering area.
Alex

18. May, 2011

@polaropposite, and yet the irony of calling someone out for not seeing the issue from your perspective while simultaneously not looking at the issue from anyone else’s perspective has completely escaped you. You may not be into bouldering. Other people are, and they like talking about it, sharing their projects, and spreading the sport. If you don’t enjoy climbing around other people, I’m sure Colorado has tons of other spots that are still secluded. Or you can try being friendly to those people and feed off of the energy they provide for everyone.
polaropposite

18. May, 2011

“You may not be into bouldering.”

Wrong – I am. That’s exactly why I and others object to publicizing obscure areas that would otherwise remain infrequently visited. And to accuse me of “not looking at the issue from anyone else’s perspective” because I’m not as fanatically into bouldering as you are is ludicrous. It is you who refuses to see this issue from anyone else’s perspective, by refusing to accept the validity of the opinion of those who would rather see previously unpublicized areas remaining that way.
Alex

18. May, 2011

“Try to understand that not everyone sees bouldering as the be-all, end-all reason for existence on this earth, … and therefore don’t see the need to publicize areas WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE REMAIN INFREQUENTLY VISITED.”

You don’t see the need to publicize it because you’re above that. Others see things another way and like to share the fun. And the fact is, we’re talking about a National Park here – land which is owned by each and every American taxpayer. You have no more of a right to it than anyone else. So you can keep getting your panties in a bunch over a relatively minor issue, or you can learn to live in a free society where we respect each other’s rights to live our lives as we see fit, and you’ll probably live a much happier and more serene life.
Nietzsche

18. May, 2011

@polaropposite,

Someone might argue that by Jamie posting about Endo Valley he is helping not damage climbing areas. By giving word to more areas he helps spread out the climbers visiting areas and so helps reduce impact. Have you ever been to Newlin? In my opinion its the best rock in CO and after about a month of crowds the numbers dwindled, leaving behind lots of new boulder problems, some trails, and yes a bit a trash. However, the situation in the end is only helping the CO climbing scene.
Ben Scott

18. May, 2011

playing devils advocate here:

has an area of 50+ boulder problems ever been developed in its entirety in less than a month anywhere in the world?

Not saying whether its good or bad yet, just wanted to say i think its a first for the world of bouldering development.

Was this a case of gangbanging the area to see who can get all the FAs first? especially the vHARD for their scorecard?
or is it honestly a positive motivational search for new challenges and movement in bouldering?

I know where you and DG fit in jamie, just not sure if everyone else in this “crew” does
Justin

18. May, 2011

Who’s to say the area would have remained infrequently visited, if someone else stumbled across it and told all their friends, and then those people brought more people it could easily become a frequented bouldering area. The fact is that no one has any more right to rocks that nature created just because they went there first or put in effort to ‘clean’ problems. If you want to have say so in a climbing area, build a gym.
Nietzsche

18. May, 2011

@polaropposite,

you might want your perspective to be taken seriously, but what I think Jamie is saying is that you don’t have reasons for your position.

Wanting to keep the area to yourself doesn’t seem to be a reason for not talking about the area because (1) its public land and (2) the rangers don’t have a problem with it (at this point).
micah

18. May, 2011

Surely we can learn something from the surfers on this topic. They seem to have experience in this area.
Calvin

18. May, 2011

As I recall from reading about some surfing history in Hawaii, the locals would simply beat the sh!t out of invading non-locals. They still eventually lost out. That the solution here?

Jamie’s entire site is dedicated to bouldering issues and includes publicizing access. However, let’s also admit that publicizing includes impact and since we’re not the best at policing our own, impact sometimes leads to loss of access. I see this debated at the Red River Gorge site all the time where one crag was shutdown very publicly.

I’m sympathetic to whomever bemoans publication of a previously off radar site. Jamie might not have a duty to omit publication of such a place, but that doesn’t mean it’s a loss in some ways to people who’ve enjoyed the quiet there. I do appreciate that he includes reminders to minimize impact and to work with park authorities.
Seb

18. May, 2011

I don’t get why you need your own ‘infrequented’ little secret area? Isnt bouldering the social form of climbing and isn’t it about sharing fantastic problems and areas with others? It just seems rude and slightly lonely that you think it’s a bad thing that Jamie is publicising and sharing this area and bouldering in general with others!
Beau

18. May, 2011

@Ben Scott

I am with you man, I think that is great that an old area has been developed so quickly and in a few months no one will even care and the crowds will die off.

This is a National Park and it is for everyone to enjoy, for christ sake its a bunch of rocks in the woods..

What we all do from here on out is the most important part in my eyes, care and cleanliness of the area is crucial.

I am grateful for all the work DG and Jamie and all of you have done in developing this area, more problems the better.

As far as the bitching, moaning, and whining just stop and listen to yourselves, do you honestly think you are accomplishing anything??

I guess in the end…. Haters gonna hate.
big poppa chosscrush

18. May, 2011

while it is distressing when your secret honey hole gets discovered by others, all is not lost if you have a good attitude. i agree that it is enraging when there is trash, egregious tick marks, and similar left behind… it is a poor gesture.

in any event, it is always fun to point out the ecological impact of the ROAD that was built past these blocks and compare that to the foot traffic. eye of the beholder situation like woah.

finally, regardless of local-ness or not, if there is any entitlement to using this land to the exclusion of others, i would say it needs to be based on who has paid more tax dollars to the federal government, not who has been free loading off the tax dollars of the rest of us.

mr. strong probably has quite abit of entitlement, however, because as a business owner, his tax colon is probably very clean after paying out the ass.
polaropposite

18. May, 2011

@Nietszche

“Someone might argue that by Jamie posting about Endo Valley he is helping not damage climbing areas. By giving word to more areas he helps spread out the climbers visiting areas and so helps reduce impact.”

So him blogging about it will cause less impact at all the other areas he’s already blogged about. Yes that makes perfect sense…

“However, the situation in the end is only helping the CO climbing scene.”

So your goal is to turn the outdoor climbing experience into a social “scene”. Can you appreciate that not everyone is looking for that?
Jabroni

18. May, 2011

I know a few (many?) considered my responses to the other topic inflammatory, but my basic gist was saying that over time, the number of climbers relative to areas is always going to increase. So the ideal of having quiet, backyard type areas has a shelf life, even if climbers might prefer otherwise. Similarly, to expect people not to discuss climbs and areas on the internet is unrealistic, because all it takes is one person willing to record info about the climbs.

As long as there are no actual access issues, as Nietzsche mentioned, the fact that one person does record info on the climbs is not likely to be something that you can change after the fact. So, in essence, the milk is spilt, the world has changed, and the question is how to manage the new reality.

Why all the mentions of uprating by the way? If you disagree with the grade in the guide, the common practice is to go to the guidebook writer and say ‘hey, I think that is actually V6, not V7′. Anyone can uprate or downrate a boulder, sometimes for good morphological reasons. It doesn’t make them a bad person…
Ch

19. May, 2011

I sympathize with those who fear that a guide will increase traffic at their area. Having stepped out of the climbing scene for 8 years I was shocked to return to old haunts and witness the invasion of youth skateboard bouldering culture. the pads and the video cameras and the insane amount of attention given to hard grades are a little out of control. Seriously does everything need to be videoed? But it’s been neat to watch the standards rise and to see high motivation too.

Publicizing an area by putting it in a guide will inevitably bring change. It seems jamie’s ethical obligation as a guide book author is to ensure that he has taken adequate steps to minimize the negative effects of said change.
polaropposite

19. May, 2011

“I don’t get why you need your own ‘infrequented’ little secret area? Isnt bouldering the social form of climbing and isn’t it about sharing fantastic problems and areas with others? It just seems rude and slightly lonely that you think it’s a bad thing that Jamie is publicising and sharing this area and bouldering in general with others!”

The primary reason to go bouldering is to socialize? Really? Do you really think everyone feels that way?

And people who aren’t looking to create a social “scene” at the crags are just “rude and lonely”? Maybe they just want to appreciate bouldering in a way that is different from the way you do?

And questioning why previously infrequently visited areas need to be publicized is wrong? Really?

What is wrong with not publicizing previously obscure areas?
Ch

19. May, 2011

@polar opposite: hear hear! Well said.
Silven

19. May, 2011

ALL of you sound like whiny little cry babies. If you want to go climb on some granite, on public lands, potentially with some other people, then go do it. If you don’t want that then go elsewhere. Or stay home. If you don’t like the media associated with bouldering then don’t watch it. Like it or not, that media is helping to drive the sport. As far as stewardship goes, well, that’s a matter of personal responsibility.
Jabroni

19. May, 2011

Polaropposite asked:

“What is wrong with not publicizing previously obscure areas?”

Fair question. Who decides whether it gets publicised or not though? And how does that information get to the people who need to know – the publicisers – in such a way that you don’t get a stampede of people going to the place in the process of passing on the message? How does the new explorer get to know the area has been frequented by people who want the place kept quiet?

If you can keep an area quiet by only showing it to the people you personally select, then by all means. If someone can and does find it without any help, and choose to publicise it, it’s beyond your control and nothing you say afterwards can change that.

It’s a catch 22. If you don’t want people to talk about the area, you have to go and talk to everyone about the area so they don’t talk about the area.

Of course, those who do harbour secret well-loved areas they hold dear might choose to email Jamie and say ‘hey, I read your blog and I have an area like that – happy to show you personally but can we keep it off the public radar?’

That would be a fair and sensible approach. Heck, he might even say yes.
Beau

19. May, 2011

@ Silvan

well said!

BUNCHA BABIES,

WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tiffany Hensley

19. May, 2011

Well put, Beau. We have a small baby doll at the Spot with the words “Suck It Up Sally” for the kids who whine about exercises.

And frankly I find it laughable that people who climb outside are angry that other people climb outside. Like Foamy the Squirrel says: “If you’re an environmentalist angry at global warming and own a car, you can go #$@% yourself.”
polaropposite

19. May, 2011

“If you don’t like the media associated with bouldering then don’t watch it. Like it or not, that media is helping to drive the sport.”

Why do you make the assumption that “driving the sport” (whatever in the HELL that means) is of concern to everyone who boulders? What REAL NEED is there to use “the media associated with bouldering” to “drive the sport”?

Can’t you just GO BOULDERING without “driving the sport” using “the media associated with bouldering”?

Try asking yourselves – Shouldn’t bouldering be rewarding enough IN AND OF ITSELF without seeking the meaningless validation of attention and publicity?
The Dude

19. May, 2011

Give Jaime a break. if you don’t like the content on his blog don’t read. He’s just excited about something, so he’s written about it.

Chill
Crybaby

19. May, 2011

shut up polaropposite, nobody likes you.
Timpson

19. May, 2011

@Silven… I, also, would like some clarification on your “driving the sport” statement.
Dave McAllister

19. May, 2011

Holy shit, polaropposite. I can totally appreciate that you boulder for reasons outside of any sort of media machine or vid opportunities. I actually can totally fathom and empathize with where you come from. I’m personally not into any sort of “scene” at bouldering areas. Not usually, anyway. I prefer to boulder with my friends, sometimes alone, and even sometimes in a crowded area with a really nice, friendly, and non-aggro wobbler-tossing vibe. Damn…must be getting old.

But, as someone earlier said, the milk done been spilled. Now, rather than debating how one finds enjoyment in a cluster of rocks (nobody’s gonna win that one…it’s pretty obvious that many are getting out some deep welled hating on the old interwebs…belittling is easy behind anonymity, or at least on the compuweb), we should focus on how to mitigate these situations when they crop up again.

As mentioned earlier, perhaps emailing Jamie and requesting his omission of your area from his website might be an option. At least that’s proactive. Or, perhaps, if enough of the “locals” get together and make their voices heard, perhaps a culture more conducive to “local” standards may take hold. For example, perhaps you “locals” could slowly foster while also asking for a less aggro vibe. Maybe you (and by that I mean a substantial group of “local” climbers who all prize this wee boulder garden) politely ask people to slow down on the “BIZAT!!!” and “HEYAAT!!!” screaming, if that offends the large majority of “locals”. Perhaps you (again, that big group of “locals”) could recommend people please wear shirts or video only on Wednesdays or sacrifice a cat before entering…not trying to be TOO facetious, but there are ways to solve these problems, or at least become proactive and allow someone else to become the bad guy by you (all those “locals”, again) politely offering suggestions and putting the chalk ball in “their” court. Basically, I’m all for areas boasting different vibes and unique ambiances. Can you imagine if everyplace sounded/looked like/smelled like Morrison? God save us…

Anyway, all this bashing sucks, is what I’m trying to say, without some constructive feedback (bashing can be great fun WHILE offering constructive feedback!). I GUARANTEE Jamie isn’t some loony freak twisting his mustache and cackling into the night sky, insanely intoxicated with gaiety that his plan to insight argument is going exactly as planned. Hopefully, what we’re looking for here is a little bandying back and forth of constructive, helpful, and less vitriolic discussion. Who knows, with a bit of courtesy we might even bridge the chasm that may or may not even exist.

For sweet baby jeebus’ sake, we’re all a bunch of boulderers. It’s not hard to get along. And polaropposite, I think if you tried to foster a little less (insert glass shaking house beat here) and a bit more (insert back slap and a “nice work” soundbite just above the soft tinkling of pine needles in the breeze) at your local area, I bet all the “locals” and “non-locals” could come to some sort of symbiotic bouldering amity on the matter. As a matter of fact, I’m sure of it.
Silven

19. May, 2011

Do I really have to defend the statement, “media is helping to drive the sport,” which I left on a climbing BLOG, that is on the INTERNET? Really? I feel like I’m arguing with those two old Muppet-curmudgeon guys that are always complaining. But sure, I’ll indulge you idiots. I’ll use myself as an example:

When I started climbing one of the first places outside of the state of Colorado that I saw pictures of was Fontainebleau. Right then and there I knew I had to go. I looked at more pictures, watched “Between the Trees” and other Font videos, talked to people that had been there, and FINALLY, after 7 years of absorbing everything about Fontainebleau I could, I went there. Guidebook in hand I trampled through that forest looking for ‘Karma’, ‘La Balance’, ‘La Baleine’, ‘Elephunk’, ‘Marie Rose’, ‘Noir Desire’, ‘Big Dragon’, and countless others that I’d seen, over and over again, in various forms of MEDIA.

Is my experience unique? Does some strong, skinny kid in the Czech Republic not watch videos of Spaniards climbing tufas? Did YOU not take the time to look at this blog? Sure, we could all just climb on ‘The Monkey Traverse’, not film it, and drink beer while doing it, but would we feel like we were part of something that mattered? Something worth devoting ourselves to? Fuck no.
Praxeology

19. May, 2011

What if this area (endovalley) was privately owned? Would this not solve alot of the problems that are being discussed in this forum? Private ownership of this land would ensure that it what used properly and any indivdual who mistreated it would not be allowed to return.

This would also ensure that as a climbing community we would not have these petty little disagreements regarding “who found it first” and “this is a locals area, keep it quiet”

Boulderers interested in climbing would have the option of paying a small one-time, or daily use fee, and these fees could be used to take care of the area as well as provide a small profit to the land owner and maybe even create some employment opportunities in the process.

It has been my experience that some of the best climbing areas in the states are on private land and run by climber friendly owners, who only want the very best and safest atmosphere for the climber.

Just some thoughts…….Love to hear what people have to say.

RON PAUL 2012!
polaropposite

19. May, 2011

“Sure, we could all just climb on ‘The Monkey Traverse’, not film it, and drink beer while doing it, but would we feel like we were part of something that mattered? Something worth devoting ourselves to? Fuck no.”

That has to be facetious, yes?

Because taken at face value, that would be the shallowest motivation for going climbing I’ve ever heard a person admit to.

I am merely questioning the “need” to publicize previously obscure areas. And please don’t tell me that publicity somehow lessens impact by spreading the impact to all the other areas you already sprayed about, or how bouldering is about socializing, or that the internet is “driving the sport”, or that every obscure little area needs to be part of some internet media circus to “drive the sport” because you saw a video about Font, or some other self-serving drivel…It Ain’t Broke, And No One Needs You To Fix It.
Jabroni

19. May, 2011

I think we get that you’re questioning the need; really. But is need the right word? Depending on who uses it, it either means:

‘something i agree you should have or do’; or

‘something i, in a philosophical sense, agree that is truly required by the person – that is to say, almost nothing’.

There is no need to publicise the area. There is no need to have a blog. There is no need to post on the blog either. And we obviously know you disagree with what Jamie did. But that’s immaterial; all of these things occurred in the past. And if you are asking Jamie to consider whether he should publicise areas in the future, you’re probably going the wrong way about it.
DB

19. May, 2011

I don’t know if you’re a troll or an idiot.
People found your little hidy hole. It’s on public land. they’re allowed to be there. You have two options:
get over it or convince them to see or do things differently? Which of these is what you’re doing? Just crying about wildly exaggerated offenses is simply annoying. You’re entire argument consists of “hey guys leave me alone, I don’t play well with others, so hmmmph!” It’s a terribly global perspective you’re coming from. This whole thread is to accommodate and investigate you’re view point, but the punchline of each of your posts is exactly the same.
DB

19. May, 2011

There were some grammar mistakes in there. I’m really tired. Sorry.
Justin

19. May, 2011

I hate to contribute to a thread hijacking but this struck a cord…

Ryan, first of all I totally enjoy climbing media in all its modern forms (videos, blogs, magazines, etc.) and from time to time contribute some media for internet consumption myself. After reading your “driving the sport” statement I found myself asking more or less the same thing as polaroposite, though I would have been a little more diplomatic about it.

Here’s a question for you: if climbing ceased to be a pastime or passion for everyone else in the world but you, and you found yourself climbing alone in a figurative vacum would you continue to do so? If your answer is yes, then you can understand why some people couldn’t care less what was “driving the sport”.

“Sure, we could all just climb on ‘The Monkey Traverse’, not film it, and drink beer while doing it, but would we feel like we were part of something that mattered? Something worth devoting ourselves to? Fuck no.”

Dude, in my opinion, if it matters to you then that should be enough.

If you had said something like, “climbing media is a major source of psyche and motivation for many people therefore there is value in it,” I’d be there supporting you all the way. But to say that media drives the sport makes you sound like a PR guy from a television network trying to explain why the X-games are so important.

Anyway, time for bed. I’m going bouldering tomorrow.

Oh and Ryan, would you please update you blog?
Lizzard

19. May, 2011

you have to love those little crying girls haha
what’s the problem people?! if it’s true what you saying that you don’t care about videos and climbing on internet what the fuck are you doing here?!
personaly i love to read about bouldering/climbing even about the places like endo valley which i’ll probbaly never visit.
why? coz it give’s me inspiration to go out and explore and brush and climb more… so keep the good work Jamie & co you are inspiration for many people in what i love to call Global bouldering community and don’t pay too much atention for people who like to hide in their own small bubble and pretend that don’t care to grade and name ”small pebbls”. why are you then so upset haha?!
Michael

19. May, 2011

LOL
Timpson

19. May, 2011

@Silven…. WOW. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your immature retort and name calling weren’t actually directed at me, who simply asked you to expand on your original statement. My motivation being that I think you are involved with LT11 no? Do I have the right person? If I do, then you have a vested interest in the media and it’s “pushing the sport forward”. I once was part of the media as well, being a professional and successful photographer for 8 years, and seeing the industry from the inside gave me a perspective that allowed me to see the downfalls as well as the benefits of media. Not that you need to be a media insider to see the obvious truth that the lion’s share of media is ego and agenda driven in search of personal, corporate, and political gain. Climbing is not immune to these problems. Examples? Look at how sexuality has pervaded climbing media. One doesn’t have to look too far back in Climbing or Rock and Ice indexes to find magazines that aren’t filled with “Sex Sells” advertisements, yet these days it’s everywhere. There have been several incidents of guidebook authors publishing without being thorough enough, leading to access problems etc, etc. Media itself isn’t the problem, it’s the lack of integrity that seems to be all too present these days. Media driven by the highest integrity and attentive forethought to its consequences? I can support that. Media as an art form of free expression? Now that’s something I’ll lace up my dancin shoes for. FYI I’m not implying that B3, LT11, or any other local climbing media has done anything unethical or not integrous.
cameron

19. May, 2011

The endo valley boulders are in a national park and that’s all there is to it!!! I use to live in Estes and work in RMNP, for example Longs Peak, and had to interact with hundreds of people a season up there, most of whom should not have been trying to summit that peak, but it’s their right.
Trying to have an argument over personal motivation for going climbing does not get anybody anywhere, climbing has to be one of the most personal sports/activities there is EVER, which is a big reason why we climb, so wtf is there to argue about???
sounds to me like polaropposite should trad climb at lumpy ridge, totally psyched. but whatever, deal. i bet that place will get quite warm this summer anyways.
and media drives the sport because it makes it more accessible and popular, how cool would the world be if everyone loved to climb and had a respectful outdoor ethic??
it’s not like endo valley was gonna stay hidden forever, same with all other similar zones, and the interweb will probably play a larger role in unearthing these sweet ass roadside gems in the future… where you can tailgate and cook meat during the climb day yesssss
Climbing Islove

19. May, 2011

Once again Sherriff, big hat, big badge, and too much swagger. It’s not what you’re saying so much as how you’re saying it. Perhaps your sincere interest in the bouldering history of the region would be better served with a different, more sensitive posture? I think so.

You make the offer to record history like someone throwing down a gauntlet–like a challenge–which to me is really odd. It’s like an author-historian approaching his subject and saying,”I am here to write your history my way. You may now tell me your story.” As someone trying to draw out a record of a climbing community’s activity, ultimately as a service to the climbing community I presume, is that really the best way to proceed?

Even if you disagree somewhat with where folks are coming from, I would think a more sympathetic position, at least in this public forum, would ultimately serve you and the community better. A more sympathetic approach might aid in better understanding (and discussion) between the two apparently opposed set of climbers.

God, I wish at least that the crude and false opposition between the ‘old-school, secret-mongering, sandbagging, and more ecologically sensitive locals’ versus the “new-school, grade worshipping, video making, internet publicizing, area destroying ‘non-locals’ could be dropped.
Dan

19. May, 2011

Ryan, I feel like you have good intentions but you come across as very green to the attitudes and culture of the vast majority of climbers. I would bet that 99% of climbers are in it to enjoy the movement and the outdoors, not to advance the sport through media.
sidepull

19. May, 2011

A few thoughts:

1) B3 can correct me if I’m wrong, but these debates are kind of one of the purposes of this blog. Indeed, I think the debates here tend to be some of the more intelligent and often grounded in real experience. So I’m grateful to all the parties involved.

2) I really enjoyed Timpson’s post. I think, given the almost limitless reach of technology (I was deep water soloing in Thailand and using iPhones to locate the next cliff), I think we all need to be thoughtful of the role of media in our sport AND become more thoughtful creators and imbibers of media.

3) I don’t think we’d be having an argument about this if climbing gyms did a better job of creating a set of indoor ethics that readily transfered to the outdoors. I think climbing gyms have really failed in this respect and we have a new generation of climbers that learned ethics inside that create the “felt need” to keep areas secret. Personally, I don’t agree with secret areas, but I completely understand the impulse and the lack of trust in the community at large given the lack of respect shown by the up and coming generation. Indeed, back to point #2, I see unethical stuff all the time in vids posted on deadpointmag, 8a.nu, and other mainstream climbing media sites.

In sum: Thanks Jamie. Let’s all be a bit more thoughtful about media. Let’s encourage gym owners to step up.

Best!
Ryan

19. May, 2011

Does anyone remember the Secret Garden? Nope, didn’t think so.
ch

19. May, 2011

““Sure, we could all just climb on ‘The Monkey Traverse’, not film it, and drink beer while doing it, but would we feel like we were part of something that mattered? Something worth devoting ourselves to? Fuck no.”

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Seriously? This is the saddest comment on this whole site.
sammy d

19. May, 2011

what a shit show. Next thing you know they’ll be selling crack around every boulder and prostitutes will be wandering the woods turning tricks for chalk
send in the wolf

19. May, 2011

I think what J seaver, polarbear, and others are saying is, try to keep a bit of a “filter” on things. Although Jamie and others have every right to be climbing there, does not give them the right to act in a way that is not respectful for future use ie. tick marks, loud, over spraying, leaving European cigs behind, tape, spilling chalk, all the shit we boulders do. Respect the locals, and locals step up and say something in person, not on the internet. I would expect a posse of estes folk vs. the boulder elite sat. at noon. No guns, just a good ole’ western punchin’ match. And please video tape.

But for real, respect each other. we all love to climb.

“sweet ass roadside gems in the future… where you can tailgate and cook meat during the climb day yesssss” +10
conrad

19. May, 2011

Hey Polaropposite, I support your viewpoint. Keep on stating your points, it’s useful to have it out there.
me, I started in the woods by myself, Motivation came from within b/c there was noone else to draw from. I moved from that into the “scene” (funny that a film is coming out called that), culture, whatever you want to calle it, and am now returning to my roots. Seems like there is this inevitable push to develop in us humans, we’ll conquer and describe everything we can get our hands on. Hard for us to leave something untouched and unexplored for the sake of that existing. The culture/scene is like a machine and it needs fuel or it dies. your local area is feeding the machine. Anyway, it all seems to head toward hollywood life. Stars, glamour, a scene, etc…
I feel your pain from the changes, hope you can find pleasure in the new equilibrium that develops.
peace all
Silven

19. May, 2011

Obviously, I, and most everyone else I know would still climb “in a vacuum,” but let’s play out that example because I think it gets at the heart of the matter here:

If I was alone climbing in the world I would have maybe a handfull of areas that I would frequent. I would have my circuits at these areas, maybe some hard projects I haven’t done yet that I thought I could do, and then there would be things that looked possible but highly improbable- these are things I just wouldn’t do because I’m not physically able. Anyways, I would climb away my days at these areas completely unaware of anywhere else to climb. I mean, why would I care? I have these nice little spots to myself, why look to see what’s on the other side of the mountain? Maybe there’s nothing there and I would’ve just wasted my time. Now let’s say there’s a guy living on that other side of the mountain that climbs and has his clutch of areas that he frequents. Let’s say he takes some pictures of those boulders that he’s been climbing and posts them in a public forum. I see those pictures and realize, “Hey, there is climbing over there, I should go check it out!” I go there, I climb with the other guy, we share beta, he shows me his projects, and I invite him over to my side of the mountain to try what I’ve been climbing on. Maybe he’s particularly good at finding beta and does one of the improbable things. Maybe I do one of his projects because it suits me even though it’s really hard. Get what I’m driving at? This is progression. I see more positive coming from this sharing of information than I see negative.

As far as my stake in the media game… Most of the time I go climbing I don’t take a video camera. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I will think to myself, “Someone might see this and want to come do it,” so yeah, I will film it. I’m just trying to keep kids from going to Morrison.