Switzerland repeats

Switzerland repeats

Posted on 30. Nov, 2010 by in News

A lot has been happening in the mountains of Switzerland, and as always, I am interested in trying to sort it out. In 2005 Dave Graham made the first ascent of The Story of Two Worlds, grading it V15. He also climbed From the Dirt Grows the Flowers V15. A few years later (2008) he would add a sit start to Boogalagga V13. Big Paw bumped up the grade to V15. For a long while these were the hardest problems in Switzerland. This fall many of the strongest climbers have set their eyes on repeating these lines.

The Story of Two Worlds (sit) and The Dagger (stand)
Dai Koyamada was the first to repeat The Story of Two Worlds. He suggested hard V15. No one else has repeated the line, although it has been tried by Carlo Traversi, Paul Robinson and Adam Ondra.

Paul and Carlo, two Americans currently bouldering in the Swiss canton of Ticino repeated the stand start, The Dagger V14 a few weeks ago. Interestingly, Paul downgraded The Dagger to V13, then brought it back up to V14.

Big Paw
Dai also recently repeated Big Paw, at Chironico, and earlier this week Big Paw got its 3rd and 4th ascents from Paul and Adam Ondra. Ondra commented that it was the hardest problem he has yet climbed, confirming the grade, and then Paul downgraded it to V14, and he comments that Big Paw adds a 7C+ into a V13.

From the Dirt Grows the Flowers
Also at Chironico, the British climber Mickey Page made the third ascent of From the Dirt Grows the Flowers, commenting that it could be hard V14. A year or so ago, Bernd Zangerl repeated FTDGTF and confirmed the grade at V15.

And if that isn’t enough nonsense to keep your head spinning, Lucas Menegatti repeated The Island in Fontainebleau and confirmed the downgrade others had suggested of V14.

What is motivating all of these downgrades? It’s great that these problems are finally getting climbed and that the climbers who are doing them are willing to give their opinion. Is this the result of grade inflation from years past, and now climbers are talented enough to actually give a more informed opinion of the difficulty of these climbs? Or is it simply 8a.nu fueled competition? Are these downgrades leading to a compression in the grading scale at the upper end or is this just another necessary step in the evolution of hard climbing?

It seems to me that if all these climbs are repeated so relatively quickly then it would be interesting to see these climbers spend years on something that was actually much harder.

Finally, Paul seems to be suggesting that Lucid Dreaming, his unrepeated V16 in Bishop, CA, is two grades harder than Big Paw. Is he setting himself up for someone to come and downgrade his problem, even if it is as hard as he says it is? And if that did happen would that climber open themselves up for the same kind of questioning? Only time will tell.

For now, it seems that the hardest boulders (B3) in the world are:
Lucid Dreaming, Bishop, CA unrepeated FA Paul Robinson
The Game, Boulder Canyon, CO unrepeated FA Daniel Woods
The Big Island, Fontainebleau, FR unrepeated FA Vincent Pochont
Hydrangea, Shiobara, JPN unrepeated FA Dai Koyamada
Hypnotized Minds, RMNP, CO unrepeated FA Daniel Woods
Ill Trill, Magic Wood, CH unrepeated FA Paul Robinson

48 Responses to “Switzerland repeats”

  1. Charlie

    30. Nov, 2010

    For some folks, including myself, projects vary from one person to another. Also, figuring out the beta for the project takes effort (not all beta works and varies) and dialing it in as you climb is both physically and mentally challenging. Once all of the components are figured, less effort is needed for him/her.

  2. Nicholas

    30. Nov, 2010

    What about …

    Singularity, Squmaish, BC, unrepeated FA Tim Clifford
    Livin Large, Rocklands, SA, unrepeated FA Nalle Hukkataival
    Nuclear War, Gunks, USA,unrepeated FA Matt Bosley
    some of John Gaskin’s nightmarish (unrepeated) lines ?

    granted “hardest boulder in the world” opens a pandora’s box, but my bet would be on Lucid Dreaming right now.

  3. B3

    30. Nov, 2010

    Livin Large probably should be at or near the top of the list. I didn’t put the Singularity on because it was suggested to be V14, same with Nuclear War.
    I would love to write a big post on Gaskins, but I can’t find any substantial information or videos.

  4. dd

    30. Nov, 2010

    grades are not real.

  5. GD

    30. Nov, 2010

    dude, now I have to know, do the Gaskins post!

  6. campusman

    30. Nov, 2010

    Mike Slavens flashed my new problem called Dig Deep. It was very impressive to see him flash it in approach shoes and he campussed the first move!
    After that flash, I was psyched to go on an unexpected and tenacious rampage. After being on the couch for 2 and a half weeks from that fall, I was definitely not expecting to climb as good as I did. I was in a bit of a slump before the fall anyways, but I have continued to eat good food (for the past month almost) and its really paying off!
    We had 4 pads including a mondo, so I couldnt resist climbing with Mike and Adam Page again…Its always a pleasure to be climbing with some of the best in the area!

  7. Mojo

    30. Nov, 2010

    I’m inclined to think that these downgrades of Dave’s problems are more a result of a boulder problem being suited for some people better than others, rather than on Dave overgrading them in the first place. Mainly because Dave seems very aware of and intent on avoiding grade inflation, and also because strong climbers like Dai, Ondra, and Nalle have all repeated and confirmed some of Dave’s 8C boulders.

  8. tsotw

    30. Nov, 2010

    Hey Jamie, coming to this blog for a couple years now, I recognize you are a reputable news source and wanted to let you know about the story of 2 worlds. This boulder has yet to be repeated from the original start where Dave climbed it from. Dai began 3 moves and a hard foot sequence in. From dave’s start it seems to be 8B into the Dagger and from Dai’s start about 8A. I know that this is big news as it now is up in the air as to who will have the coveted 2nd ascent of what is likely the hardest boulder problem in all of Europe.

  9. Chris

    30. Nov, 2010

    I always take the, “Could be (Current V grade – 1)” downgrades as more humility than a serious suggestion of a downgrade, but this could just be the polite Midwesterner in me. I suppose that this completely depends on the climber saying it.

  10. marco pelle

    30. Nov, 2010

    i suggest “gioia” 8C (8C+?), problem by christian core in varazze, to be included in your list.
    it has been tried by koyamada and webb parsons with no success, even on the standing start which stands at around 8A+/B.
    i think you can find video of the ascent on the tube (not uncut footage although) and other info on core’s website. and i’m sure he’ll be glad to give further information, as he really would like to have his problem repeated for a confirmation of the grade.
    keep on with the good work you’re doing, it’s a pleasure to read your blog.

  11. Martin Stranik

    30. Nov, 2010

    Also Radovan Soucet from Czech Republic repeated FDGF one month ago and he was not also sure about grade. Till this send his hardest problem was one 8B so he think FDGF cannot be 8C. But on the other side, this boulder totally suited him, so who know… Need more repeats…

  12. Martin Stranik

    30. Nov, 2010

    Sorry, Soucek. Here you can find all his sends this year http://www.pilka-kameny.cz/index.php/hobby-zona/hujer

  13. Derek

    30. Nov, 2010

    Both Kaizen and ATHOIA have been repeated by Sam Davenhall, another massive beast from the south lakes. Contact David simmonite or ray wood if you want pics of gaskins on his hardest things (or a quick google). ATHOIA is one of the hardest boulders on the planet, cheers for the snub though it makes you look really naive and ignorant of other climbers efforts.

  14. Steve

    30. Nov, 2010

    The G dropped off the radar ever since the Bock vs Gaskins liar liar pants on fire escapade. Basically Bock couldn’t believe his super hard problems were repeated so quickly by john and started spreading slander, check 8a.nu for more of the story.

    G Problems
    Shadowplay, V15, location Kentmere
    Il Pirata, V15, loc. Trowbarrow
    Walk Away sds, V15, loc. Fairysteps
    At the heart of it all, V14, location Woodwell
    Kaizen, V14, one repeat Sam Davenhall, loc. Woodwell

    All are located near the Lake District in England, check ukc logbook for accurate spots and test your strength.

    Johnny Geeeeeeeeee!

  15. TimS

    30. Nov, 2010

    I think the only footage of John Gaskins is on the Slackjaw Video “Stick It” http://www.slackjaw.co.uk/climbingfilms/stickit.html there’s quite a few photos knocking around, with these being some of my favourite http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49959 and this old Crag X interview has some facts in.

    It is unlikely that anyone besides motivated locals will end up travelling to attempt to repeat JG’s testpieces as they are in one of the wettest parts of our very wet island, and are in general not very aesthetically pleasing, or are eliminates. From what I’ve read it seems that JG climbed these problems to challenge himself on problems in his local area, and wasn’t really bothered whether people came to repeat them.

    Having looked at (and tried in vain to pull on to) a few of his hardest problems (in particular Pill Box Wall, which he gave 8A+/B but is reckoned to be at least 8B+) and At The Heart Of It All http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/CyLwiki/561.jpg the most obvious difference compared to the hardest U.S problems I’ve seen (I’ve visited Bishop and Co) is the size of the holds in relation to the angle of the rock. JG’s problems often seem to revolve around very small holds and ridiculous body tension.

    Unfortunately I think JG will remain a bit of a legend, and I kind of prefer it that way. The problems are there for people to go and try as a marker of his climbing at his prime.

  16. chetroy

    30. Nov, 2010

    Too many variables to put a solid grade on any climb. Window grades and grade polls is where it is at. Some people say to me that there is big difference between lets say, a v7 and v9 or v11 and v13. These people say this because these numbers are near their max, at the moment. The same people would also say v1 and v3 and pretty close to the same grade (window), but someone maxing out on v2 would highly disagree. So window grades are usually accepted when talking about grades well below ones own max. But when it comes down to pushing your own limits, people want a solid grade (ego driven, but understandable) and lose site of how diff variables play a role on a lines difficulty. So when talking about the hardest lines, really, v14 and v16 are the same thing, f&^$$# hard. Props to the limit pushers.

  17. B3

    30. Nov, 2010

    Thanks for mentioning Core’s problems, By all accounts those are very hard. I know a few climbers have been shut down by Gioia. In regards to the Gaskins problems, so much has been made of these things it would be neat if someone like Daniel made a trip specifically to repeat them. Perhaps Ondra will at some point, as he seems to understand the importance of things like this.

  18. aa

    30. Nov, 2010

    “story of 2 worlds. This boulder has yet to be repeated from the original start where Dave climbed it from. Dai began 3 moves and a hard foot sequence in. From dave’s start it seems to be 8B into the Dagger and from Dai’s start about 8A”

    do you have more infos about this? did dai not know the right start? this would be kind of big news, eh? (though not totally suprising…)

  19. sidepull

    30. Nov, 2010

    There are two things that seem truly bizarre about this:

    1) For every downgrade there seem to be other repeaters content to leave the grade as is. So does a downgrade by Carlo or Paul override a status quo grade by Dai? If so, why?

    The answer might be …

    2) 8a is having it both ways – they want to report big numbers, but they love it even more to report the downgrades of big numbers (Jens’ ubiquitous “courageous and humble” nonsense). I think climbers, in an era where social media can drag out the significance of a send, are realizing that they get more exposure for climbing something hard AND suggesting a downgrade rather than just climbing something hard. In my opinion, there seems to be very little humility about it (eg., watch Carlo’s diatribe after he climbed Jade, there is nothing about it that suggests humility). Instead, it’s the Madonna principle – any news is good news. So, rather than trying to be honest about grades, climbers garner attention by creating controversy about them. The result is that it’s impossible to know who to believe because everyone’s motives are questionable.

    Finally, I think one huge variable has been ignored. Many of these boulders have sat unrepeated for 5+ years. It’s not like no one was trying them because they were not aesthetic or eternally wet (like Gaskins’ work). They were well publicized, easily accessible, beautiful lines. I’m more interested in how many strong boulderers flailed on these lines than a strong crew feeding off each others’ energy making a fast repeat (I’d climb a grade above average if I was climbing with Dai – we’ve all experienced this group effect).

  20. james

    30. Nov, 2010

    Regarding John Gaskin’s, rather than waiting for one of the famous climbers to try them, why not ask one of the Brit lads how difficult the problems appear? Quite a few of them have tried John’s problems and some of them have even climbed the odd difficult line abroad….

  21. Dan C

    30. Nov, 2010

    I think it would be cool to see chuck Fryberger or the Lowell bros try to approach JG or at least his problems with a crew or strong lads and lasses. I also agree with James I’m sure there are brits who’ve tried JG’s problems. I read that only a couple of years back did walk away stand get a repeat and it clocked in at 8B and Steve McClure supposedly looked at the problem and couldn’t even find handholds for the sit start.

    As for the downgrads I find Paul’s most interesting. Its almost like he’s taking both sides of the coin with his V16 Lucid Dreaming and now V14 Big Paw. He said something to the effect that grades have to progress and go upward otherwise we get stuck in a rut after LD and now he’s saying we need to consolidate V14 and leave V15 as the frontier. Change of heart? News hunting? Sponsor related? Props to Paul for the send and I wish this wasn’t a issue or even such a big talking point. Until 2 other guys call this 8B+ I thnk we need to just take this as the minority opinion.

  22. Jill

    30. Nov, 2010

    According to several British climbers J.G. problems are notoriously hard.
    “Tyler Landman, one of the strongest boulderers in the world, says the hardest thing he’s ever tried was one of Gaskins’ 8A/B’s”
    It would be great if some strong boulderer would give John some props by repeating his hard lines.

    It seems Dai doesn’t comment on grades that much, not outside of Japan anyway. And seems to be known for giving grades conservatively for his FA’s.

  23. tsotw

    30. Nov, 2010

    No he did not know where it started. I believe someone told him the wrong starting holds, unfortunately.

  24. Steve

    30. Nov, 2010

    To quote an article about the G from UKC:
    “Tyler Landman, one of the strongest boulderers in the world, says the hardest thing he’s ever tried was one of Gaskins’ 8A/B’s…”


  25. B3

    30. Nov, 2010

    One thing that interests me is that when Paul did Lucid Dreaming he said

    ““We need to progress the sport of bouldering and not get stuck in this v15 rut and never move forward.””

    By that logic wouldn’t then a downgrade of Big Paw dig the V14 rut deeper? I guess I don’t understand what he was trying to say here. Maybe he or someone else can clarify.

  26. james

    30. Nov, 2010

    @steve thanks… I was being slightly sarcastic though as I was aware people like tyler had tried Gaskins stuff. Just found it funny talking about getting someone really good to try some of his problems, without asking someone really good, for example Mickey Page what he thinks of them. There are serious beasts in the UK, but they seem a bit quieter in how they go about their business so I appreciate this may make it more difficult to gather information.

  27. Chris

    30. Nov, 2010

    I don’t think Paul is being contradictory here. In saying that we need to progress the sport of bouldering and not get stuck in this v15 rut and never move forward, he’s simply saying that we need to be open to the possibility that there really are boulders out there that are more difficult than V15 (eg, Lucid Dreaming). He’s NOT saying that we need to start upgrading every V15 boulder we come across and start “trying” to grade things harder than they are.

    In reacting against the upward pendulum swing of grade inflation, let’s be careful not to swing the pendulum too hard in the other direction, but rather bring it to balance in the middle ground of honesty.

  28. B3

    30. Nov, 2010

    Paul didn’t upgrade anything. He downgraded a confirmed V15. Why is it that he is open to the idea that Lucid Dreaming could be V16 but not to the idea that Big Paw is V15? He’s not been one to downgrade things in the past. Perhaps he now has a better understanding of grades as Dave did a while back when he retroactively downgraded many of his hardest problems. It’s hard to tell what climbers true motivations are all the time.

    Also, interesting, Jade is still V15 on Paul’s scorecard. Does this mean that for him Jade is a grade more than Big Paw?

    I predict that, based on what several strong climbers have told me, that Lucid Dreaming will be downgraded when it gets a second ascent.

    Also, I would like to hear more from someone who knows about where Dai started on TSOTW. Again, this brings up the importance of defining a problem and I will stand firm that to repeat a problem, it is imperative to start where the first ascentionist started.

  29. 2 dollars worth

    30. Nov, 2010

    god these conversations never go anywhere. Does anyone have anything new or interesting to say or do you want to eternally talk in circles… down grading, up grading, grades don’t mean anything. Hate on Paul, hate on DG, hate on whoever, and then just the opposite.

    everyone talks about grade inflation/deflation/stagnation like it really matters to you, the climbing community or the world as a whole.

    god I just wish sharma would decide he didn’t want to rate things again so everyone would think that was the cool thing to do and just drop the who subject.

    the diatribe is boring B3… can we instead move on to beautiful stories told with amazing photos and stunning video. can we speak of the adventure, the peril and anguish. can we hear of the tenacity and perseverance and finally revile in the triumph of the conquers.

    climbing was once a great sport in which men and women mastered the unthinkable at the edge of the imaginable. mountains were climb in far off lands with but one hope of return: to get to the top and survive the descent. rock faces were challenged by the fearless. they had to be sieged to be slain. boulder problems were discovered in drug induced hazes and championed by those to dumb to know better. and most of all our heroes were characters.

    no all we have is middle class wanna be gangsters to afraid to venture far from their mothers bosom. they climb hard but do little else. where am i to find intrigue in this? how do D. Woods, DG, P. Rob or the lot of them generate a story i should care about? where is the trial and tribulation. the back story to their lives. the suffering and survival or the lifting up of those around them?

  30. Philip

    30. Nov, 2010

    I have no idea what the actual case is, but my feelings would be that Paul was just trying to be honest with the grade of Big Paw as V14. He did it in 3 days (I think according to 27crags), whereas Terremer or Jade took him 6-7. Also, it seems like he had an epic battle this summer consisting of many days with Monkey Wedding (which was originally graded V14). So maybe he just really felt like it was V14?

  31. B3

    30. Nov, 2010

    Addressing these issues is important because

    A) Many of the people involved in the climbing community are interested.
    B) I have time on my blog and I would like to explore many facets of climbing. Grades are a very interesting topic, just as adventure, quality, suffering and survival as well. I have written exstensively about all of these things and I will continue to write about all kinds of things regarding climbing.
    C) I am personally interested in difficult climbs.

    Finally I think its great that Paul has given an opinion and its good that he is climbing well. It would be great if more climbers gave their opinions. Again, what will matter in the end is not whether Big Paw is V14 or 15, but who did the first ascent of this classic problem. Most of this “news” in Switzerland is old. In a few years I am sure this type of drama will occur at Lincoln Lake, but by that point the leaders of the sport will be on to something new.

  32. campusman

    01. Dec, 2010

    What about the dude that doesnt care about ratings and smokes pot all day long???

  33. Steve

    01. Dec, 2010

    IMO the whole grade thing is about ego. “I can climb this grade which is harder than the grade you climb so i’m better”. What better way to slap down on someone’s ego than to repeat a super hard new problem and then claim it was easy for you and propose it is overgraded, BURN!!!

    And to make matters worse sites like 8a.nu actually give you points and rank you against one another for the grades you redpoint, flash or onsight. So basically even if you’re not on the top of the pile you can say people are cheating to get these points by grade inflation blah blah blah.

    I don’t even bother with the whole “oh grades are good because you can tell how hard something is” argument. You get on the thing and try to climb it. It’s either hard, tricky or you can do it, nuff said.

    This may sound like a bit of a troll rant to fire everyone up, but it’s just stating what’s at the back of everyone’s minds. I can testify to the satisfaction of burning someone off by doing a problem someone can’t do, feels good but i’ve been burnt off by loads of other people too, it’s just part of the game. The fact is everyone has different strengths and techniques and that’s why climbing can be such a personal thing. If people want to slap a number on their new route/problem to gauge their progress, fair play, at the end of the day it doesn’t really impact anyone else, only their ego.

  34. m

    01. Dec, 2010

    it’s hard to believe professional climbers such as paul or dai can start problems one or few more moves in, but I guess that may happen if the fa is dated back in time and none else has tried the problem for years.
    I know for a fact adam ondra tried tsotw starting from the beta bern zangerl gave him, and I think I remember him telling me of 8 moves or something about that number of really hard boulder problem that he could do, but couldn’t manage to link to the start of the dagger (it was just right afterword he did confessions and before he got back to dreamtime for the first ascent after break).
    anyway, quite apart my possibly faulty recollection of the exact number, in an old interview on climbing, dave graham talks about “seven BIG” moves into the dagger of solid 8b or 8b+.
    I gather carlo traversi used dai’s beta when trying to link tsotw, so I guess he starts the problem where dai started it. traversi has built a reputation during his permanence in switzerland of taking sit starts not literally, so to speak.
    if you go over at carlo’s blog you can see a short clip of him actually doing the link to the starting hold of the dagger. count how many moves he does, not starting actually sitting down on the ground, and you get four, not seven..
    one is left to wonder what happened to the missing three.
    and I can’t help thinking that the same goes for big paw. from what I’ve seen (from traversi’s video), dai doesn’t start sitting down, he may have started a couple moves in on this problem as well. and so may have prob, given they were all trying it together.
    I’d really like to see footage of both tsotw and big paw of dave doing the fas, just to make sure that the actual start of the problems hasn’t changed over the years.

  35. m

    01. Dec, 2010

    left out a bit there, which I’ll add here just to make a bit more sense.
    I said traversi kind of built this reputation for himself, so he may have altered the start of tsotw from what dai showed him. that may be where the missing moves have gone.
    who knows, I can’t help but thinking that seven big moves for graham can’t turn into four for someone who’s even shorter.
    or am I misreading the meaning of BIG moves?

  36. Average Climber

    01. Dec, 2010

    8a.nu is simply fueled competititon! It takes away from what climbing truly represents, which is for the pure joy of doing it. Not for updating your scorecard on what you have recently sent.

  37. campusman

    01. Dec, 2010

    ratings give hearsay for others about the difficulty of each climb

    for some ratings are about competition

    for some ratings are for themselves

    i mean, i realize climbing is not life because god is the only thing that gives us life and it seems that the whole community is not full of life like i am…i feel like noah, the only smart person in the world

  38. Mojo

    01. Dec, 2010

    Dave does tend to use different beta than other climbers . . . but it is definitely hard to see those four moves turning into seven.

    If it is so hard for people to tell where the first ascentionist started from, it seems like there needs to be a better way to share this information. It would be nice if there was a public, easy to find record of the starting holds for new, hard FAs . . . simply to avoid issues like this in the future.

  39. dude

    01. Dec, 2010


    Christian Core on Gioia

    V15, suggested to be V16

  40. TK

    01. Dec, 2010

    How does one go about comparing difficulty for completely different types of movements?

    Seems like an arbitrary pursuit…

    each problem is unique…it’s a shame they just become a number…

  41. campusman

    02. Dec, 2010

    ratings are simple, they are an idea of difficulty

    ratings do not need to be exact, they are just an idea
    When a climb is rated it doesnt just become a number, its just rated…has no demeaning to the beauty of the rock whatsoever so really its not a shame at all

  42. tsotw

    02. Dec, 2010

    Where carlo starts in the video is exactly how dai starts. Dai told carlo that is where it begins only for carlo to later realize that position is multiple moves into the climb. This was how Dai was told it started and unfortunately climbed the boulder. Dai should go back and finish it from the bottom for the true 2nd ascent. I bet he could do it!

  43. m

    02. Dec, 2010

    all over cresciano, chironico, magic wood and other places in switzerland starting holds are roughly marked by small arrows. on some problems there even are Xs on the exact hold for each hand.
    the latter it’s pretty straightforward, while arrows just give an idea: you shouldn’t start with hands one meter above them.
    anyway, if a problem has a sit start, you’re supposed to start actually sitting on the ground..
    not every climb is marked by arrows or small Xs though, and I can’t remember if someone bothered marking the starting holds of tsotw, or big paw for that matter.

  44. matt

    02. Dec, 2010

    still no mention of that dude.

  45. Adam m\M

    02. Dec, 2010

    WE’re talking about v14, v15, and v16, where not too long ago these grades didn’t exist!

    Isn’t this amazing! Climbing is so impressive.

    Other sports just have more POINTS per game and a couple new tricks, but not many have next level stuff like this. Always hitting a three pointer is like sending the same problem in a “better way” or in sneakers. Doesn’t actually change the game

    So it may deviate a point or two. “Hardest” used to be v8 yaknow.

    v15/16? Freakin’ A rock climbers. Nice work.

  46. bmj

    03. Dec, 2010

    Paul Robinson responded to a comment on his blog asked him to compare Big Paw and Lucid Dreaming:


  47. pete

    03. Dec, 2010

    Carlo says, “It’s where Dave told me to start, and it’s exactly where Dai started for the 2nd ascent (he showed me the send footage). Not sure about that old news article. Could be some misinformation? It felt like maybe 8A+ climbing into The Dagger. Due to the physical nature of the climbing, it makes The Dagger much, much harder in my opinion” about The Story of Two Worlds on his blog. http://carlotraversi.com/2010/11/01/the-link/#comments

  48. Anthony

    27. Dec, 2010

    If Dave was counting foot movements as well as hands then Carlo did that beginning sequence in 7 movements. Mystery solved. 😉

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