Daniel Woods Rampage Continues

lucas

01. Mar, 2010

The first little part of Desperanza is barely V5 into the decent knee-bar shake out. V5 + V14 with a rest in between = V15?

Terremer, V12 into V14 with no rest = (soft?) V15
Story of 2 worlds, V14 into V14 with no rest = V15

Does that mean The Game is V9 into V14?

B3

01. Mar, 2010

Having climbed Shaken not Stirred, for me the beginning felt V8. Other climbers find it easier, but V5 seems a bit sandbagged. Also, this link has been tried by James Litz, Paul Robinson and believe Chris Sharma and Fred Nicole (although I am not 100% on that) and all have failed. Regardless, it does seem to add something, and demonstrates that “The Equation” fails as often as it succeeds.
As much as it would be nice to simply apply an equation to the problem, this demonstrates that it doesn’t really work.

Tye Watkins

01. Mar, 2010

I’m sure it makes it harder.. but I honestly cannot conceive it being possible for a V8 to add much to a V14. Obviously, I haven’t tried it.. but I can’t really wrap my head around it.

fish

01. Mar, 2010

amen

Blake B.

01. Mar, 2010

Agreed. I have never taken “The Equation” very seriously. The difficulty of an extremely hard and world class boulder problem can not be determined by some mathematical equation. There is just too many other factors involved. And as for Woods’ past month of bouldering…..absolutely ridiculous. Come on Daniel, share some of that crimp strength with the rest of us mere mortals.

OBdizzy

01. Mar, 2010

Obviously Daniel does not have the credentials to grade V15, I’d rather listen to the punters who’ve never tried the problem speculate.

sam

01. Mar, 2010

how can two v14s back to back be the same grade as a v8+v14? its not maths its just obvious one is harder than the other..

Dave graham

01. Mar, 2010

I think this boulder being graded v15 could be devastating to the future of the v15 grade. I have climbed esperanza, and consider it be soft 8b+, even potentially 8b. If you want to use a logical comparison, and leave hype out of the math, this boulder does not end up as v15…but future repetitions by people who have independent minds will be able to give an honest second opinions…No one likes it when people try to judge a boulders grades without making a repetition for reference, but as time goes on, we will have to find a solution of how 7a+ into 8b+ equals 8c, and further how 8b+ into 8b+, also equals 8c.

Does anyone follow me?

The history of bouldering up to this day still stands for something, especially outside of Boulder, Colorado.

Szenenews der Woche | kletterblog.info

01. Mar, 2010

[...] Daniel Woods hat die Erstbegehung von “Desperenza (V15)” in Hueco Tanks gemacht (Quelle) [...]

Dan C

01. Mar, 2010

I think its important to remember that grades have depth. While I’ve never climbed Esperenza I’ve heard it called solid V14 meaning it may not take much to bump such a problem up to easy V15. Those who like slash grades may find this to be a candidate. The more I climb and talk to others the more I like window grades, ex V6-8, which yes most simply said is V7 but it more clearly represents that such a problem can feel different to different people

peter

01. Mar, 2010

a. who really cares? v14, 15? it’s all quite sick.
b. if the crux comes at the end of esperanza (I’ve never been to hueco, nor can I pull on those holds) then the combination of the added fatigue produced by several extra moves into sustained HARD climbing combined with having less chalk on your hands could definitely make a crux lunge seem considerably harder. If esperanza is on the tougher side of 14, desperanza might be on the softer side of 15…
c. come on guys, let’s use our imaginations instead of nitpicking grades. we’ve all climbed and felt that something “easy” can make something “hard” feel even harder
d. so daniel said that he’s leaving the desert for CO projects….when is the other desert and rasta up?

B3

01. Mar, 2010

“I think this boulder being graded v15 could be devastating to the future of the v15 grade” Amazing. Thanks for commenting Dave.
I have no idea how hard this problem is having no experience at the grade and little on the problem, but I do think that 8a.nu has lead to upgrading, as there is no incentive to take a lower grade, besides Jens asinine “Brave and Humble” motto.
I would argue that it is more difficult than Esperanza, but does that warrant a new grade? I don’t know.

9a+ von Sharma und 8c von Woods » First, Woods, Projekt, Einstieg, Tour, Minute » climbr.de

01. Mar, 2010

[...] der First Ascent Front. Daniel Woods hat heute Desperanza, ein weiterer möglicher 8c boulder. Wie B3 berichtet, erweiterte Woods Esperanza um ungefähr 6 Züge im Bereich 7a+. Woods selbst vergleicht [...]

sidepull

01. Mar, 2010

could someone translate this for me:

“The history of bouldering up to this day still stands for something, especially outside of Boulder, Colorado.”

Is Dave saying that Boulder-ites think the world revolves around them and don’t consider a broader consensus or something else?

Good discussion.

Maxim

01. Mar, 2010

Jamie, in my article i state that one of the main limitations of the Equation is that it does not work for long link ups that are closer to routes than to boulder problems. If the pump factor is negligible, than it works; on longer boulder problems such as Shaken Not Stirred and Dark Waters, things start to get trickier.

I think Desperanza is a prime example of a boulder problem where pump starts to become a factor, and a route grade should be potentially considered.

Dan

01. Mar, 2010

If something is more difficult than something else does it warrant a new grade? OF COURSE. That is the purpose of grading, to differentiate between two problems/routes of differing difficulties. I think in everyone’s effort to be “brave and humble,” many of our top athletes have now become to scared to give hard problems harder grades. Nobody will question a new V9 if it’s harder than the V8 right next to it, so why is it different with V14 and V15?

Another thing with this whole “brave and humble” thing is climbers trying to be more brave and humble than other climbers by downgrading routes and problems that shouldn’t be downgraded. It’s just getting silly. What people are failing to realize is that with new training facilities and a larger population in the sport, V13 ain’t no thang now for lots of climbers. And it’s only a matter of time before the number of people climbing V14 increases too, so what, is V15 the ceiling? I refuse to think, and also believe it’s extremely arrogant to think, that nobody right now can climb V16 and that V15 is the hardest grade out there.

Are harder grades supposed to encompass a larger range of difficulty? That seems pretty ridiculous to me. You don’t see Sharma, Andrada or Ondra giving new routes a 9a grade and calling them very hard 9a. They are legitimately giving new grades to routes that deserve them, and bouldering is no different.

Props to Daniel on his recent achievements and for giving what he feels is a solid and accurate grade for his FA’s. When someone else can put this sort of effort into a number of difficult problems in such a short amount of time let him be the one to criticize the grades, but for now let the people sending that hard decide and let the grades stand.

Dan

01. Mar, 2010

One more thought.
Dave, maybe you underestimated yourself and undergraded The Story of 2 Worlds? Maybe it’s V16 or harder? It hasn’t been repeated and has seen tries from numerous strong climbers, including Adam who flashed a V14 of yours and subsequently did the Dagger but could not do the sit-start. My thoughts are that you may have established one of the worlds first legitimate V16s?

Ange

01. Mar, 2010

This all means only one thing— Daniel is strong enough to go establish more hard boulders (like the game) in an area (like Turkey) where he has to use his own vision to do so. It will be more interesting to see how that turns out (in my opinion) than it is to argue about equations. I thought I climbed to escape things like math. But to each his (her) own…….

CJS

01. Mar, 2010

Sweet of Dave to check in here. As the only one here to have done the problem, I think his opinion carries a lot of weight.

Otherwise, thinking of links that I (a nobody from nowhere) have done, I can definitely think of V7s that are impossible for me as the second half of a link, even coming from a mere V2. Does this phenomenon still exist half a dozen grades higher? No idea.

It all begs an interesting question: Should endurance be a factor in grading boulders? Routes, sure – but if the theory is that bouldering is the hardest possible moves at one’s physical limit, then should the grade reflect solely the execution of the most difficult move(s)?

To put it differently: Consider the “challenge” of sending a problem as some combination of the crux, headgame, conditions, pump, etc. Should the level of “challenge” be reflected in the grade, or just the “difficulty” of the hardest move(s)?

peter

01. Mar, 2010

how does it come, that people start calling esperanza ‘solid v14′ or even ‘hard-side v14′ AFTER dave comments it felt soft v14 for him (maybe even v13)??? im just wondering about such stupid logics… there are not so many people on the planet that climbed so many problems of these difficulties like dave did…

but how 8B+ into 8B+ can be 8C…??? wondering if a 7C move after 8B+ still lets a line feel like 8B+ or more like 8C. but these things should be thought about by guys like dave and daniel (and other known names)

CJS

01. Mar, 2010

PS
Props to Daniel. I don’t care what the grade is, still SUPER inspiring.

Paul

01. Mar, 2010

Funny…I was talking to somebody at my gym not too long ago and we agreed that something that probably pisses high level climbers off more than anything is when mere mortals argue about grades of problems far beyond what they can do. Having said that, I think super crushers can lose respect quickly (not that they necessarily care) by hyperbole in the grading of climbs and that the community giving its opinion, however limited it may be, can only help hard climbers and the community as a whole. Just a thought…

chuck friburger

01. Mar, 2010

try again boys … v15 … wow hefty , or should i say HEFTY … not this time , its the talk of the town & any 3rd grader can add it up … lets not get a head of our selves … we’ve all been there in the martini cave and that lil monster was never considered V15 … and all those peeps that started down there anyway cuz they though it started there , and where told it starts in the real start , wow i don’t think they were thinking V15 … whod a thought ?

Danny

01. Mar, 2010

You guys don’t really believe that’s the real Dave Graham do you???

hahaha

B3

01. Mar, 2010

Hey Dave, I need your essay for the Park Guide!!!!

Joe Nancy

01. Mar, 2010

Dave,
Face it, you will never be as good looking as Chris or Daniel and until you send Desperanza, all your comments are as theoretical and mute as Joe Nancy, the VO demigod.

Peter

02. Mar, 2010

@other peter: I wrote my comment before seeing Dave’s, presumably while his was awaiting moderation. Obviously had I been expressing an opinion about the grade of this problem, I would, of course, defer to his opinion.

However, I was not. instead, I was expressing the view that I could see how the grade Daniel suggested is possible by likening it to the common experience of having something easy make something difficult seem even harder. Mostly, I was suggesting that I could see where Daniel is coming from. After all, his perspective is the only one that matters because, as Dave points out: “No one likes it when people try to judge a boulders grades without making a repetition for reference.”

Justin

02. Mar, 2010

@ Dan: most of your points are great, but this one needs some more consideration: “If something is more difficult than something else does it warrant a new grade? OF COURSE.”

Not exactly, the grades are meant to be thought of as a spectrum. Therefore you can have two problems of the same grade where one of these is a little more difficult than the other. Otherwise, if problem X required one more calorie of energy to send than problem Y we’d have to grade it higher right?

One example of this in a more well traveled problem, “Stained Glass” in Bishop, CA and its sit start are both graded V10, the sit is harder, but not so much so as to add a grade.

Good job Daniel, you climbed a hard line.

Hoff

02. Mar, 2010

I really don’t care what the grade to that problem is, I know that it’s highly unlikely that I’ll ever be strong enough to climb that problem, so mad props to daniel for sending some crazy hard problems

Dan

02. Mar, 2010

@ Justin: Sorry I wasn’t really clear there, but I do agree with you, it would be a different story in my opinion if it was a V0 start to a no-hands rest, but it’s apparently substantial enough that Fred, Paul, etc haven’t been able to do it. So I feel that it should definitely warrant a harder grade, and apparently that’s what Daniel felt too. That’s really all I was getting at, and I think it’s stupid that people immediately question and criticize accents as if someone like Daniel knows less about the problem than they do.

JMan

02. Mar, 2010

It must be said, Daniel was the first to complete this link-up problem and he is well within his rights to give it a name and grade, that is the privilege that comes with talent. However, it must be realized, and I am sure Daniel is aware, that Desperanza now belongs to the climbing community at large. Once a route or boulder is completed it loses all sense of ownership, and like artwork or music, is free for interpretation. With each successive repeat this problem will find its place in the pantheon of hard problems, and indeed, it will be considered a hard problem.

But I must agree with Dave Graham, the V15 grade must not be watered down. As with all open ended grading systems the upper limit can be arbitrarily placed at any numerical value; however, as a community we have settled with Sherman’s V-scale and corresponding Font scale. Because these systems are user-defined it is our duty to invoke much self-policing, which is clearly a difficult task when a major component of the sport is pushing yourself beyond your physical limit.

I guess all that Dave wants to see is a little self-restraint, which is something that Daniel doesn’t necessarily always do. For instance, if my history is correct, Ode to Modern Man was originally a V15 and now barely considered a V14, and Jade has been repeated numerous times and rather quickly. Sadly it seems, Daniel has history of over-grading his work, which is peculiar because he is so strong. Regardless, climbing is a subjective sport, and as long as we try to invoke and objective grading scale there will always be debates like this one….they are unavoidable.

Matt

02. Mar, 2010

Having spent waaay too much time under the martini roof over the last 8 years, it always suprised me that esperanza started where it did anyway. Maybe the start doesn’t add much difficulty, I wouldn’t know, maybe Fred wanted a power problem instead of a power endurance problem, whatever. Desperanza seems the more logical line for those capable. Rock on.

Core Trailer | ClimbingNarc.com

02. Mar, 2010

[...] of Fred Nicole’s Esperanza (V14)) during the Hueco Rock Rodeo and there is an interesting debate taking place about his decision to drop the V15 number on [...]

toothbrush

02. Mar, 2010

The Great Debate…awesome to see these climbers chime in on these discussions. Assuming that really was David Graham that commented…seemed so, and it fit with his typical logic we’ve all witnessed when watching climbing flicks. Saw Kevin Jorgenson chime in on a similar debate a while ago…and that pretty much ended it. That’s why this ‘sport’ is frigging awesome and so the anti-sport.

I think it’s important though, that someone like that chime in on these grade debates. This is such a vague sport if we can even consider it that. It’s not like…we all have a tennis racket, and that tennis racket has to meet certain standards. Then we play a game with equal sides and use that racket to see who’s better at it.

We each get a body, and each one is different and it heavily applies to your ability to do a route or not do a route and whether its a little harder or a little easier. So the efforts of one are not equal to the other. This ‘equation’, should be ‘The Equation’ that everyone is talking about here and not some logical equation of 1+1 = 2 or that V7 + V14 should not = V15

Climbing is not logical people, it’s spontaneous, inspirational, frustrating, heart wrenching and beautiful all at once. (I mentioned heart wrenching cause we’ve had a few deaths last year that equate to a sad reality of this activity).

So if your seeking logic, and a fair playing field where 1+1=2 then seek elsewhere. I hear tennis and golf are lovely in the summertime. But, if you can consider that sometimes V7 + V14 = V15 and sometimes it doesn’t, then get your hands out of your pants and put em on some beautiful jugs and caress em all the way to the top…out.

Anon

02. Mar, 2010

@JMan
if my history is correct, Ode originally got 14 points, and then Daniel went down to Hueco and pissed all over Terre de Siene, and decided that Ode might deserve the uptick. Tye repeated and said no 15 points, and it quickly settled to V14. Not exactly incautious grading, and Jade shut down Graham, and hasn’t exactly seen any repeats from slackers. Why do people want to talk shit about grade they won’t climb in their wildest wet dreams?

tickmark

02. Mar, 2010

can Daniel even add 7 and 14 to begin with?

Macca

02. Mar, 2010

Check out Daniel’s response on the 8a.nu site, he makes some interesting points.

brian

02. Mar, 2010

> Why do people want to talk shit about grade they won’t climb in their wildest wet dreams?

Because that’s what the internet is for?

Mark E

03. Mar, 2010

Congrats to all … well, most anyway … on an excellent discussion. I think it is informative to look to other sports at times for relevant analogies. I have always thought that men’s gymnastics is the closest to paralleling bouldering. I could be wrong, but I do not believe that a difficult move on the rings, horse, bars or other earns a higher mark for difficulty if it is performed at the end of a routine. In gymnastics, the logic seems to be that the fitness requirement is completely secondary to pure difficulty. So if bouldering were to follow that model than adding easier moves to a very difficult problem would require Little or no uptick in grade. Just a thought.

Ben

03. Mar, 2010

I think its plain and simple, we should accept Daniel’s suggestion of the grade with a grain of salt. Since he is the only one to climb it, WE MUST WAIT FOR A REPEAT! Also, I know it is fun to speculate, but in the end it is up to those few athletes who climb at such a high level to have the final say. I have faith that Daniel knows what he is doing. I hope to see him continue to send hard (new) problems. I also hope that P-rob answers back in a BIG way…… (Rasta)

and finally………Come on…. a mathematical equation! You can’t quantify a sport that is based on instinct.

Crafty

03. Mar, 2010

Lots of good points. But it seems irrelevant whether or not it’s V15. If it gets multiple repeats, then we’ll see.

Why doesn’t Daniel, or anyone else for that matter, go finish the roof project at the end of East Spur?

cardboard_dog

03. Mar, 2010

I just want to say that a strong climber being spit off a problem has absolutely no bearing what-so-ever on the problems grade. I’m pretty sure CS and DG could send Desperanza the same way PR and KG sent Ode.

That being said I know as a climber the difference between a 7 and a 8, a 8 and a 9, a 9 and a 10 and so forth. I have no clue what a 14 or a 15 feels like but I trust that DW does so I have to trust his judgement. I don’t don’t want to doubt another climber without good reason.

Also, one of the most respectable aspects of CS’s climbing was that he so rarely rated anything unless, it seemed, he was positive of the grade. And his grades usually stuck. Props dood. Props to DW on a proud send.

CJS

03. Mar, 2010

He posted a pretty sweet comment on 8a.nu, including:

“I do not base the difficulty of a climb based on how its graded in sections, I base it on the number of ascents it has seen and how long it takes to complete it.”

Daniel Woods Kommentar | kletterblog.info

03. Mar, 2010

[...] der Diskussion über seine neueste Erstbegehung “Desperanza (V15)” hat sich jetzt auch Daniel [...]

sock hands

03. Mar, 2010

i think dave’s original comment is interesting. when dave sent, did he think esperanza was 14 and only now, upon reflection, thinks it was easy? i think i see where his mind is going, that grades should be adjusted as more data becomes available…. nothing is static…. but rather needs to be constantly adjusted in the best effort the human mind can offer up to affix a numeral to multiple chunks of stone.

but if a grade is so sacred, and if the grade that humans give a climb is so subject to scrutiny and change, how can the grade ever be sacred? uniformity is certainly not attainable under those conditions and the whole boring grade debate cycles back around again.

after repeating so many difficult lines at that highest level, why should not daniel’s concept of grade not better reflect the “true” nature of v15?

at least until it gets done x10 and gets the downgrade then…

which i think was a facet of dave’s point in the first place.

which makes this comment, like all the comments regarding every climbing issue, completely useless.

like metaphysics.

more importantly and mentally tangible: bitches on DPM pointed out that this line does not top out, but that it could, via the v7 big iron rightward traverse. my foggy memory of hueco says that this is not true… that the finishing hueco of esperanza was separate and doomed to its dead end.

true, or, not true? i’ve not been there recently enough to know.

is this like barefoot? does it need a top out for modern day validity? or, are anonymous commenters running their textual mouths again without a clue?

i cannot wait for the onset of demnesia so i can focus on issues like tying my shoes instead of how i just wasted billable hours.

sock hands

03. Mar, 2010

wait, also, if terremer represents ~ “a new level at hueco tanks”, and if daniel just did terremer, and if daniel thinks desperanza is on a level with terremer, doesn’t that mean that desperanza is at such (then) new level? i.e. the apparently divine level of v15?

whatever.

in any event, if dave is ever successful in the tail-chasing quest of grade uniformity, his true mark on the sport will still be the developing of areas and establishing classic lines, pushing the level of the sport…. not championing a madman’s ideal; defending the chastity of “v15″.

this goes for you too, b3po!

Atticus

03. Mar, 2010

I agree with Dave.

The depth of V14 and V15 should be preserved. Only time will tell…..

Crafty

03. Mar, 2010

sockhands,

As Esperanza/Desperanza finishes now, the closest one gets to Right Martini is having the right foot in the big hueco on Right Martini when one throws for the finishing jug of Esperanza.

If people want to complain about it not topping out, so be it. But I feel that a lot of problems at Hueco either don’t top out or have questionable quality rock on top. It certainly adds a spice factor, but it’s not like the sandstone in the Southeast where the topouts are classic, unique, and difficult. tacking on a topout would, in my opinion, be sorta pointless in this case.

Do we need to add chossy climbing over a weird landing to make a classic roof problem that starts on a jug and ends on a jug better?

joe

03. Mar, 2010

This doesn’t make sense. People change and progress, rocks (at least on the time scale of the human life) do not. Just because a problem becomes easier for people over time doesn’t mean you should change the grade. The vanguard of the sport (ie, Daniel Woods and others) should be determining grades.

To respond to Atticus’s point, that “the depth of V14 and V15 should be preserved,” again, for whom but the very best (ie, Daniel Woods) is that to determine? If a grade becomes “too deep,” that is, encompasses too great a skill range, then it loses its meaning. Let the pros continue to work out what they think are 14, 15, 16… 17, 18, 19, 20…

Ovrfiend

04. Mar, 2010

Sockhands’ mention of Barefoot on Sacred Ground brings up a good point. If you drop off the hueco, its 12 points. If you traverse around the corner and finish See Spot Run, its 12 points. If adding a handful of V6 moves to V12=V12, then maybe Desperanze should be V14. Daniel gets to make the final call but it is an interesting point.