Women in Climbing

Posted on 22. Feb, 2010 by B3 in Articles

In 1994 Lynn Hill free climbed The Nose on El Capitan in a day, a stunning feat that is clearly one of the greatest achievements in rock climbing history. Not only did she climb the first ascent of one of the hardest routes in America at the time, (it went unrepeated for 10 years and that was only after a 261 day seige!), it was arguably the best route, on the most prominent rock climbing feature in the world. On top of that, she did this in a completely male dominated sport and built the road for the future of free climbing big walls, one day ascents of such walls, and women climbing hard around the world. Few ascents could claim to have such an impact.

But where has that left women’s climbing today?

In America, 2008 was a pretty good year for women’s bouldering, in terms of difficulty.

Lisa Rands made an awesome ascent of the Mandala V12 in Bishop.

Angie Payne climbed European Human Being V12, in RMNP, Alex Johnson climbed Clear Blue Skies V11/12 at Mt. Evans, and Alex Puccio did CBS, The Marble V11 or V12, and most impressively Trice V12 on Flagstaff Mtn.
This year Puccio added The Gentleman’s Project V11, The Maze of Death V12, and several other V11s to her ticklist.
During the same two years the top men flashed several V13s (including a V14) and established problems up to V15, one of which is 25ft tall. It would be hard to argue that the gap hasn’t grown. Have women fallen behind, or is this gap appropriate? Should there be any gap?
While Ms. Hill’s ascent was not a bouldering ascent, it was a significant advancement in climbing, and in some way addresses two key issues. First, the idea that women can climb at the same level or higher in terms of pure difficulty, and secondly that women can do important and classic first ascents.
Perhaps twenty years ago the top women of today would have been climbing stronger than the strongest men. If one were to look at the total number of hours men have spent climbing, it would far out number the total number of hours that women have spent climbing (simply due to the fact that there are far more men than women in our sport) and is this the gap that is reflected? Often times when such a debate arises, the fact the men and women have different bodies is used as the reason for the difference. There seem to be climbs that favor a smaller climber, like Chablanke in Hueco Tanks and Clear Blue Skies at Mt. Evans, but those are the exception. More often than not climbs established by taller climbers will favor taller climbers, and most of the climbs established are put up by taller climbers. Perhaps The Nose just happen to fit into the exception, an excuse many men used when they failed to repeat Hill’s route. Do men have a psychological advantage simply because as a group they have more practice and have had the opportunity to push the bar farther? Should we even be comparing the differences between men and women? Perhaps it is the lack of an objective standard that blurs this line, unlike swimming, or track and field.

Angie Payne trying hard in Fontainebleau

The second issue is that of women actually going out and doing first ascents. Women have done very little development in modern bouldering, more specifically of individual problems, let alone finding and developing whole areas, as Fred Nicole and Dave Graham have. A situation where a guy steps aside so a girl can do a first ascent does nothing to push things forwardly. Women are not the ones hiking to the boulders with rope, harness and wire brush to clean and climb the newest boulders. This is one obvious niche that has yet to be filled in the growth of our sport. The argument could be made that only a small percentage of the total number of men that climb develop new problems, and if more females did climb, the number of female developers would increase. Conversely, almost no women have done any significant first ascents of classic problems at the best climbing areas. Are men acting selfish, territorial, and egotistical, and do these generalized traits lead to development? This is a complex issue but one that is rarely addressed. The intention of this post is to be honest, and to generate some discussion as to why women haven’t made more significant contributions to our sport (bouldering) as Lynn Hill demonstrated could be done with her sport (traditional climbing) almost 20 years ago. I for one would love to see them do so.

Tags: Alex Johnson, Alex Puccio, Angie Payne, Lisa Rands, Women in Climbing

65 Responses to “Women in Climbing”

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22. Feb, 2010

[...] Passend dazu ein Artikel von Jamie Emerson über Women in Climbing [...]
jacob

22. Feb, 2010

nice essay.
thanks for addressing something that i’ve always wondered about…icame to the conclusion that lynn hill is a superhero.
Luke Bertelsen

22. Feb, 2010

I believe that Thomasina Pidgeon deserves a mention in the realm of women’s bouldering.

I think there are just certain genres of climbing and the climbing industry where women have not broken into yet. Another relatively rare or maybe more rare place to see women in climbing is as a competition or commercial routesetter. I think that everyone sees where this could be beneficial, but it just isn’t there….. yet. I think that it will happen in bouldering and in other areas of climbing. We hear of women’s big wall, mountaineering, ice climbing ( Ines Papert), soloing (Steph Davis) ,etc. Bouldering will get there too.
B3

22. Feb, 2010

Luke, thanks and I totally agree with you about the commercial route setting. Obviously, there are a few females involved (Molly Beard comes to mind) but that has been dominated by men over the years. The subject came up this past weekend at the comp.
sockhands

22. Feb, 2010

super interesting point about female FAs…. it does seem that many, not all, female FAs that get press were actually cleaned by some dood.

if that point ruffles some feathers, folks should first realize that it is as true as a generalization can be. and if it does, maybe it can bring to light some true female developers, or, motivate some to go out, explore, and clean some gems for the rest of us.

word to the females. i wish alex johnson would stop flashing my projects.
JamesO

22. Feb, 2010

Are there any sports where men and women compete evenly? Not sure why rock climbing would be the one exception.
chuffer

22. Feb, 2010

Another solid article from B3 that asks questions that will stimulate discussion … good work JE!
B3

22. Feb, 2010

Thanks guys. Hoping to generate some female perspective, although I’m unsure as to how many women actually come to the site.
Dan C

22. Feb, 2010

You rub shoulders with a lot stronger women than I do JE have you asked them? Sounds like this might be more of an interview topic than a blog post. I am curious to hear what others think may be behind the lack of development by women. Beth Rodden-Caldwell comes to mind when talking about women developers but she isn’t exacly known for bouldering. In my local climbing scene I don’t know any femaies who go climbing without a guy along and typically the guy is a stronger climber. So even if they do go to a newish area its the guy who is doing most of the work of cleaning. Because who would make a woman do all the work and not at least help? Now a good guy might allow the female to get the FA but he is probably looking to climb the line as well. Why don’t women go exploring alone with other women? I don’t know.
peter b

22. Feb, 2010

Great topic which ties into a number of posts I have put up at my blog.

No answers here but I do think that the degree to which climbing culture still looks to women as visual objects rather than actual athletes has something to do with it.

As the father of a daughter, I have a lot of issues with the ways in which women are introduced to the sport whether through media or even through sketchy advice from well-meaning men, which I see a lot of outdoors or at the gym.

The day when women are allowed to be just climbers is when interesting things will happen. FWIW, while Lynn Hill was amazing, there are a number of contemporary female climbers whose breadth of experience and skill is just as impressive. Josune Bereziartu is a true all-around climber at a world-class level for example.

Both Alexes are capable of V14 or harder in my view but what will push them to it? Not sure. You should ask them.
B3

22. Feb, 2010

@Peter, I was hoping to get some response from them in a public forum.
@DanC I have been looking into doing some interviews, but I don’t own a video camera and hardly have the funds to purchase one right now.
Rocco

22. Feb, 2010

Could it be possible that some/all of this (especially pertaining to the time spent seeking out and cleaning new problems) is linked to the fact that, generally speaking, women are more mature,”real life” goal oriented, and open minded than men? I rarely see the type of obsession for climbing amongst females, even the really strong ones, that you find fairly frequently with men. A clear example of this would be the number of male climbers that you see dirt bagging and just living to climb compared to the number of women who eat, sleep, breathe ONLY climbing. As a side note, I don’t think this obsessive commitment to climbing is a good thing.
campusman

22. Feb, 2010

I think girls are pretty
kevin murphy

22. Feb, 2010

I would have to agree with Rocco on that one. The time spent hiking, cleaning, top roping, all that jazz is very time consuming. If you look at most “climbers” at the top of there game, who are doing significant FA’s, they are sponsored, and pretty have just enough money to make it all come together, there not working a 9-5 job. And its down right labor intensive.
kevin murphy

22. Feb, 2010

Cont. Its a bit in the same realm as, how many women carpenters do you see, or how many “garbagewomen” are out there. Don’t even try. I think you get my point. Jamie if you ever need a camera let me know, its not HD , but it does a decent job for over the web.

Cheers
sockhands

22. Feb, 2010

@ rocco… perhaps, then, this boils down to the common denominator type issue of climbing being a cash poor sport.

there are plenty of women who pursue surfing and snowboarding and such sports with crazy fervor, as men pursue climbing…. as a singular, demonic focus…

but those sports pay, so maybe in your scheme, this is more justified as being a more mature and fiscally responsible approach… pursue excellence in a sport that can pay the bills?

this is stream of consciousness and is not perfectly stated, but you catch the drift.

it all boils down to the almighty greenback.

there is a perfect deltron lyric that encapsulates the obvious point here, but it would not be mr. beal approved.

now, tell me the answer to this second age-old question: does an economic objective corrupt the goodness of rock climbing? oldsters say yes. youngsters wish no. i’m getting older by the passing second. what camp shall i inhabit? no answers will be determined now, i bet, but if we all good caddies and attain true enlightenment upon death, will we finally learn the answer, or is the answer that the answer really does not matter?
Odub

23. Feb, 2010

Good post. I hadn’t thought of it from the angle that the top women of today are climbing harder than the top men of yesteryear.
In several of my DPM songs I (unsuccessfully) tried to spur on a friendly rivalry between the Alexes and Lisa, hoping for a V13 ascent from one of them.
I hope it happens soon. I’d love to see it.
ange

23. Feb, 2010

alright. i’m going to go with the stream-of-consciousness approach here and offer one woman’s perspective…

there have been many good points made above with which i definitely agree. i hadn’t thought about the general lack of obsessive tendencies in women as an explanation before, but i think it is an interesting one. as a woman who was once consumed by an obsession with climbing, it’s interesting to think about this point. i traveled the country to boulder and lived out of a truck and still didn’t do any first ascents or clean any boulders. so, i guess my behavior doesn’t support that argument, but i still think it is an interesting one.
my first reaction is to say that women are not out establishing new problems because there isn’t the same level of competition in the women’s field. don’t get me wrong, i know there are plenty of strong women out there and i know that at competitions the field is often close, etc. but, it seems like there isn’t anyone really pushing the alexes (except for one another?) to go out and do something new. or maybe they just don’t want to. it seems that if a female youngster started catching up and decided to go do first ascents, the other strong women would follow due to competitive tendencies. in the men’s field, this has been going on for a long time, and it sometimes seems that new problems are established because so-and-so wants to put up a harder, better line than so-and-so. i know this is not always the case, and maybe not even the case most of the time, but my point is, there is no female lighting a fire under the butts of the strongest females to get them outside and exploring. or maybe i am going the wrong direction with this…since it seems that a lot of men establish boulder problems due to the pure desire to climb something that hasn’t been climbed. but again, if the strongest female boulderer can stand out just by winning a competition, maybe there is no incentive to take the next step and go establish new things.
obviously, there are no real answers here, but it is a very interesting phenomenon in climbing. it would be cool to look at snowboarding and skateboarding to see if women in those sports invent new tricks, explore new areas, etc. do they? i don’t know, but would love to find out.
maybe that doesn’t add anything to the conversation, but it is a topic that should certainly be discussed more in the community. is it because society tells women certain things about how to act that keep them from exploring to the same extent as men? is it because women feel that they are still behind men in the sport and have to “catch up” by doing the established problems first before going out and finding their own new boulders? i’m not sure, but i will keep thinking about it….
B3

23. Feb, 2010

@Ange Thanks for your input. It’s nice to hear from at least one female boulderer. Don’t forget you did sit in a harness for about an hour and clean off what would become Dance with Devil in Joe’s Valley. A small step, but a step none the less. I think you could have done that one before me. Tim snaked both of us!
News & Notes – 2/22/2010 | ClimbingNarc.com

23. Feb, 2010

[...] Emerson poses several interesting questions with regards to women and the world of high-end [...]
AB

23. Feb, 2010

I’m going to speak loosely as well …

In my observations, women are more concerned than men are with comparing themselves to each other. I think, in general, women are more competitive with each other than men are. Men compete with themselves, women compete with each other.

I realize this is a gross generalization … just throwing it out there because I’m not sure how true it is …

Women compare themselves and what they are capable of to what other women have achieved already. I hear this in the typical crag/gym/boulder conversations in female packs: “[Blah Blah female] had to dyno on this problem to make that reach”

“[Blah Blah female] couldn’t make that span, she had to use the crimpers”

“Blah blah female only climbed this because she lost ten pounds”

Men do this too to a large degree … Perhaps women would rather test themselves on the boulder problem that their female counterpart had failed/succeeded on already and see how they stack up against them …

This is an interesting discussion because it’s talking about boulder problems. I thought about this in terms of putting up sport routes and thought that, perhaps on a basic Freudian level, men like drilling phallic shaped drill bits into virgin rock … women aren’t as innately drawn to that.

But beside from that, there are very few examples, relatively, of women taking initiatives to explore new terrain. People like Lynn Hill and Amelia Earhart are huge exceptions … not the norm.
News & Notes – 2/22/2010

23. Feb, 2010

[...] Emerson poses several interesting questions with regards to women and the world of high-end [...]
sockhands

23. Feb, 2010

well, i guess i’d have to admit that it is certainly more fun to climb clean, ready to go problems than to actually rap in to clean boulder problems when doing so involves lichen, moss, dirt, friable rock, black widow spider action, bees, hanta virus, etc etc.
Shannon

23. Feb, 2010

Like a lot of species, humans are sexually dimorphic- there are two distinct sexes that display different traits. In humans, males tend to be larger and have more muscle mass (as with most mammals). From an article about sexual dimorphism: “Women (on average) are about 52 percent as strong as men in the upper body, and about 66 percent as strong in the lower.” Let me clarify that: women are approximately half as strong as men in the upper body. When it comes to bouldering, which is more purely strength/power based than other climbing pursuits, the technique, flexibility and balance that most women bring to the table (I’m speaking in the general sense here, obviously there are women out there who are more strength-oriented) are simply not going to be the equivalent of raw power – that extra 50% of upper body strength is going to be a huge advantage on the average hard boulder problem. I am aware of this every time I go bouldering – there are certainly problems where my flexibility and technique allow me to figure out moves quicker or send a problem before the guys, but when it comes to straight up pulling, I just don’t have that same muscle mass, and I think it’s clear that the same is true of most women. And that’s not a bad thing! I don’t think it’s demeaning or somehow insulting to women to recognize that we’re very different physically. It doesn’t mean I can’t push myself to get as strong as I possibly can, or that I’m not going to work on problems that require more strength than technique. However, I do think it’s a realistic and honest explanation for why women aren’t sending the same boulder problems as men.

I think JamesO asked a very relevant question in a previous comment – is there any sport where men and women compete evenly? (Curling?) Look at gymnastics, which I think of as being pretty close to climbing in terms of physical requirements – those women are strong and tough as hell, and the things they do are extremely impressive, but they aren’t doing the same types of strength moves that the guys are doing. Their routines tend to incorporate more of the things I mentioned previously – balance, grace, flexibility. They capitalize on their strengths, they don’t try to keep up with the guys. And I enjoy watching them much more than I enjoy watching the guys do iron crosses.

Another point – I read an interview with Lisa Rands once in which she noted that as the grades get harder often the holds just get further apart (it was a while ago, can’t recall the exact quote). As part of that sexual dimorphism thing, women also happen to be shorter, which would mean that the grading scale is significantly skewed in the direction of men/tall people.
Shannon

23. Feb, 2010

As for FAs, I would love to be out there cleaning and developing routes/boulders or looking for new areas, but alas, I have one of those pesky 9-5 jobs in a city far from real rocks, and a lot of those responsibilities Rocco mentioned in a previous post. The weekend is the most I can manage right now, but even that’s not guaranteed, so I typically want to devote what little time I have outside to actual climbing. Most of the women I know are in the same boat.
Sarah M

23. Feb, 2010

Excellent post Jamie!

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, especially after watching the men’s and women’s snowboard finals at the olympics. Hate to say it, but the majority of the women’s field was far behind the men, at least to a casual observer such as myself. And, as you’ve pointed out, bouldering is also suffering the same.

Speaking for myself, I’ve spent about 1% of total climbing time cleaning and putting up first ascents. I think it’s a time thing for me- to give credit to all the people establishing areas, you spend a huge amount of time out in the woods with no certainty of finding anything good. I would rather go out to an established area and climb, knowing I’ll get in a good session. Selfish? Probably. I give major props to the people out there developing, they’re giving back to the sport in ways I’m not.

I think women should have an open mind when they go out climbing, and look for new things, not just what the boys call a good problem. I do think much of the lag between men and women difficulty wise has to do with who is developing the harder problems. If I’m 5’10 and can do one-arm pinkie lock-offs I’m going to look for problems that reward me for those skills. Women can and should do the same- find moves that complement their skill set and turn ‘em loose on the world. I wonder how long it would take for such problems to be considered fairly, especially if women start edging into the v15-v16 range?
toothbrush

23. Feb, 2010

Great post – excellent insight from all. It’s a hard comparison, and in todays world it’s become less and less popular to admit that men and women are just different. We are built different, we chemically react different and I get to stand and pee while the ladies gotta sit…sorry I know your all jealous.

I think women are cursed with having to chase the bar physically (at the top level of bouldering ofcourse). But, for something like The Nose, it was a mental breakthrough more than a physical one – even though we all know it was/is very physically demanding. I think even Lynn Hill admitted in an interview that she knew she was not the only one capable of doing the ascent at the time. But she had the vision and deservingly gets the credit for the breakthru. That is why that instance in climbing was so unique. It’s why the first ascent of any route is always unique. The mental circumstances are entirely different than that of the 2nd ascender(s) because they know it was possible by someone.

I think Lynn Hill was in the prime state and location to seize that moment when she decided in her head that The Nose was possible to free climb. This is the beauty of climbing. It gives us the impression that there is an even playing field because our minds are the biggest barrier. We can only speculate on the next mental breakthru to come from a female. I think, based on that it means there must be more to come; even in the intensely physically demanding world of bouldering. In the end, its…can you hang on or not?
joe morgan

24. Feb, 2010

its AWESOME to see this discussed on a public, inter-tubes type forum! i have often brought up the lack of female FA happenings, the tendencies towards sexism in the rating of climbs due to sexual dimorphism, etc…

one thing i often think about:
as a major developer of new bouldering in southern Cali for about 11years now, i am often confounded by how few people actually go out and seek new lines; often times the FA’s are simply an extra 30 minute hike or drive, yet relatively few climbers seem to make the effort.

Relatively few climbers go seek the FA’s in the first place; if we take that, and then think about female FA’s, it starts to make sense to me in terms of society and how females are raised.

I often drive out alone, hike into some god-forsaken hillside, past abandoned ranches, whatever i need to do to find new rock; this is the kind of thing i have been doing since i was 16 years old. 16 year old girls dont go out hiking alone. they are not raised, like i was, to go camping and hiking independently of parents, and many times with just one friend, if that.

this probably leads to a much less independent, driven female FA seeker than a male one; i hope that doesnt sound sexist.
my thoughts, thats all

go find rocks ladies!
Narc

24. Feb, 2010

Related to this topic is the below article someone sent me a while back. I meant to do a post about it but never got around to it.

http://www.doublex.com/section/life/rock-climbing-only-truly-gender-blind-sport
sidepull

25. Feb, 2010

Shannon mentioned this Lisa Rands, here’s her quote:

“Q: How do you feel about how women’s accomplishment in bouldering are viewed?

L: In any sport, men and women have their own achievements. You don’t want to judge them compared to each other.

Q: Why?

L: Because the rating system is geared towards people taller than most women are, and so it may not look like we’re achieving that much. You know, “How come women have climbed V11, yet men have climbed V15?” When you suddenly try to compare the top women to Fred Nicole and Chris Sharma and Dave Graham, it doesn’t look that impressive. What I find on the harder boulder problems is that the moves don’t necessarily get harder in terms of the holds getting smaller; they just get farther away. Of course that’s a generalization, because it can depend on the problem. But it seems that the rating system is just not geared towards women who are five foot four or smaller.”

from:
http://www.lisarands.com/press/cm12152001.asp
Stephanie

25. Feb, 2010

A few thoughts…

1) I think we have firmly established that women are physically different from men, and may be struggling to keep up in this sport since the majority of problems were put up by 5’10″ meatheads. And yes, we should be overcoming this disparity by putting up our own first ascents.

However, I must ask where the motivation lies when the problem that I find, spend days cleaning, and project is only to be later sent by some dude who skips half the holds and downrates it to v5? I rarely come across a problem that benefits the short, and when I do, it’s usually called low-ball, scrunchy, or awkward by the same goliaths who can’t pull their asses off the ground. The sport has developed an ideal that the best boulder problems are tall and sporty, preferably with at least one dyno per every 10 feet.

2) Another hindrance preventing women from exploring new areas: We carry a lot of cultural baggage with us. For instance, it’s not that I’m less psyched than the average dirtbag boy you’ll find living in Hueco for a season. I am, however, slightly terrified of traveling alone, and living alone in the desert outside of El Paso. Whether or not this fear is just a figment of my imagination, a result of a paranoid society, or a legitimate concern, I don’t know. Just sayin’ it’s there.

3) If what Shannon says is true, we should be getting, like, 48% more points for every send since we’re only half as strong. That means I’ve been sending v18s for years now.

I’m not trying to throw out a million excuses why women generally don’t send as hard as men, because no excuse is good enough. We should be following in the footsteps of Lynn, but it’s easier said than done. Therefore, I routinely compare myself to the boys, but only to increase my motivation for my own self gain.
Another Sarah M

25. Feb, 2010

I’ve only been climbing for a year now (best year ever) and I’ve had the priveledge of climbing with a huge group of super strong people (not V13 strong but wicked stong in my book), including many women. One thing I’ve noticed is that nearly all of the women I climb with came into the sport as a result of a brother or boyfriend or husband that was a climber. So right off the bat we’re playing catch-up with our male counterparts. They’ve been at it a lot longer than we have. While the women are projecting the V6′s that the guys finished last season or even the one before, the men are off working on the V9′s in the area or are setting new problems. Looking ahead – if our group ever did have someone get strong enough to set a new super hard problem – it would likely be one of the guys with the girls following along trying to catch them. I also think that the women purposefully climb the problems that the men have already done – just because it is satisfying to know that you’ve finished something that one of your guy friends had to project at one point or another. It’s a good measuring stick to see how far you’ve come.
CJS

26. Feb, 2010

I just want to offer my congratulations on this forum being so open, thoughtful, and sincere. 30+ comments, almost universally respectful and generally insightful or true. Lots of good stuff to think about.

You cater to a classy clientele, B3.
B3

26. Feb, 2010

@CJS, Marvez sisters, Shannon, Ange and everyone really I want to thank you all for your thoughtful and insightful comments. Great stuff, and it’s awesome to hear from some female climbers out there. I am very thankful and inspired!!!
B3

26. Feb, 2010

One thought that was brought up in the gym the other day: No matter your sex, color, race, haircut, climbing shoe, Verve pants or scrubs, we should all be striving to be the best climbers we can be. Before we know it, testpieces like The Game and Dreamtime will be warmups and while I am clearly not competing with the best in the world, or even the country, I can take home with me that on my best days, I gave it my all. Klem Loskot once talked of a doing a “personal limit move” and this is really the search, trying to find and break through personal physical barriers. Climbing is the coolest way to do that.
JamesO

26. Feb, 2010

“. . . since the majority of problems were put up by 5?10? meatheads. . .”

The majority of hard problems were put up by Fred Nicole who is shorter than Alex Johnson. And my girlfriend is taller than the strongest climber in the world.
B3

26. Feb, 2010

Good point James, I’ll side with you on this one. Haha.
IanE

26. Feb, 2010

And don’t forget Daniel Woods!

Something as simple as “men are taller and stronger” is a grossly inadequate explanation. Most climbers are nowhere near their genetic potential, so genetic potential isn’t the limiting factor.
Ange

26. Feb, 2010

One more thought that was brought up (I believe by Jamie) at the gym recently….maybe it was already addressed, but I will reiterate it anyway.

It is pretty common for the strongest women in a climbing circle/region/gym/etc. to climb with the strongest men, or at least men that are stronger than they are. In many areas of the country (or at least some) it is not uncommon for the number of men climbing in a gym to exceed the number of women. This is definitely changing over time, but I know that this was the trend where I grew up climbing. Also, it is not uncommon for the strongest woman or women in a climbing circle/gym to end up climbing with men due to the absence of women who climb at a similar level (this is also likely changing in many areas of the country, but it is certainly the trend i grew up around). So, as Jamie pointed out when some of us were discussing this in the gym, when these women go outside with these men, the men will most likely do boulder problems before the women (since the women are climbing with stronger men). while i am sure that there are cases where women climb with men who are not as strong as they are, it seems that it is not the norm. from personal experience, this might be because men are not always comfortable with being “beat by a girl.” i am obviously generalizing, but this is something that society instills in children at a young age. just the other day, for example, i was in the gym and a young boy was climbing with his older brother or friend near where i was climbing. the boy was obviously new to climbing and was falling on something in the v1 range. i was trying something harder, and when i did it, the older guy immediately told the young boy that “he couldn’t let a girl beat him.” i know that this is changing as more women enter the sport, but my point is that there is a certain amount of societal pressure put on boys to not be beaten by girls. this often leads to women/girls climbing with men/boys who are stronger than them, since that situation is much more accepted in our society, even in 2010. speaking for myself, it can make things pretty awkward when a guy takes some sort of offense to being “beat by a girl.” so, it is not surprising that women often climb with stronger guys, which leads to projects often being done first by men.
jacinda

26. Feb, 2010

Thanks Jamie for replying to me on the prana blog. I did not know who wrote the article and was only asked by prana to comment on it. You definitely deserve credit for the article, and have brought up a very interesting subject. Also I was not trying to sound critical of men or the author. The gist of my post is in response to the title that prana used, “have women fallen behind.” Also I just got my wisdom teeth out and I am on a ton of pain killers so nothing I say may make any sense, but I will repost my comment as you asked on this blog. Best – jc

My perspective comes from climbing in the latter 90’s and then taking an eight year break to find that the sport of rock climbing had dramatically changed. When I left climbing to pursue school and children the top female names that stuck out in my mind were Lynn Hill, Tiffany Levine (Campbell), and Bobbi Bensman. I had just broken into climbing 5.13a sport routes which had actually gotten me free shoes from a prominent shoe company. Imagine that now!? When I first attempted a route in American Fork Canyon called Dead Soles (13d/14a) out of pure curiosity, I was ostracized by many men for even thinking of attempting it. Actually sending that route ten years later was hardly even mentionable. So from my point of view, I believe the bar has been dramatically raised for women climbers. I also feel that it is growing at an exponential pace. I find it a bit trivial to divide up climbs as if they are more female or male friendly. Just because this sport has a variety of variables that can lend difficulty to a climber or favor a climbers strength, does not suddenly even the playing field for men and women. On rare occasions such as Lynn Hills free ascent of The Nose, we women will shine amongst the greater climbing community, and maybe even make a few of our male counterparts a little insecure. On a whole, I do believe that it is natural to have a “gap” amongst male and female climbers, and find nothing wrong with this. I wonder who is more concerned with this topic anyways? Is it women screaming for equality, or men who hate being out climbed by women? Just a thought. site.
cardboard_dog

26. Feb, 2010

Dude if these broads start spending all their free time cleaning new problems then who’s gonna do my laundry.
B3

26. Feb, 2010

Jacinda, thanks for reposting this! I am really psyched on all of the discussion this created.
Don

27. Feb, 2010

Jamie,
What in god’s name are you doing worrying about this? Lynn’s first free ascent of the nose was highly rehearsed, but utterly brilliant. In lots of ways, it was more like an extended bouldering problem. That is the legacy of her climb–the Huber brothers, Tommy Caldwell and all the rest do laps on these routes. Technical difficulty is something to be admired,
but the willingness to hang it out under conditions of extreme uncertainty is, at least for this old man, considerably more interesting. So who would you admire,
Warren Harding or Lynn Hill? Both. But look at the uncertainty–Lynn knew she would succeed. And look at Caldwell’s Dihedral Wall ascent…an incredible ascent, I can’t imagine the difficulty (I did the 4th ascent), but he had it wired. I was in Europe this summer bouldering and climbing and found that everyone was climbing routes that were far harder than I could manage (nothing new), but it was all rehearsed and memorized (I climbed with some guys from Germany who had been returning to the same Boulder problem in southern Switzerland for years. Yawn. What is interesting is that there are women and men who really push the envelope. They are the one’s that benefit and the rest of us just watch, and for me at least, admire.
Mike B

27. Feb, 2010

Jamie, I have been talking to my girlfriend about this since you posted, she has her own input on the subject but here are my thoughts:

when attempting to compare something like this that is so incredibly complex and can be affected by so many outside factors one must try and eliminate as many extenuating circumstances as possible. Meaning, you would want to find a male and female climber of the same size and ape, with very similar styles. To be able to take any sort of accurate measurement, you can’t compare Alex P with our friend Darryl D, they are way to different. Even comparing women and men climbers as a whole set is essentially a futile mission.

I think as a whole right now, obviously men are breaking into higher grades, I don’t know why, there are physical characteristics that separate men from women and I think that is all that is separating male and female climbers from climbing the same grades right now.

In the FA department, I think that men have an innate need and drive to “piss on the nearest bush” meaning that they have much more of a maniacal drive to leave their mark on rock climbing than women do. That could be a simple difference in psychological programming.

Great post, good to see people talking about things like this in climbing
cardboard_dog

28. Feb, 2010

I think the whole point of bringing up the Nose ascent is to do away with height issues. Men used height and small fingers as an excuse for years until TC did the 2nd? or 3rd? free ascent. The point is that on first ascents there are no excuses. It either goes or it doesn’t go .. for you at least. And there are plenty of woman out there capable of HARD first ascents. Angie being a good example. If it gets downrated? So what. The grade means nothing in relative terms. Kahuna roof and Maveriks are good examples of moderate boulder problems that anyone in the world would be proud to have their name attached to. If it’s good and people are going to climb it than chase it. Clean it. by all means.
Sorry about the laundry comment. Couldn’t resist.
little photon

28. Feb, 2010

First off, great stuff on this topic from the lads and the ladies. I got something to add to the mix, a coach/ developmental/biological perspective. So… I’ve been coaching and setting for a super long time for the BRC, the Spot, the Vail Athletic club and private coaching too and one thing I’ve seen, nearly 100% of the time is a gender difference in the development of power, coordination, and endurance, the ability to figure out steep climbing vs. vertical footsie-ness. Up until sometime in middle school (age 11/12ish) girls are always quicker to develop graceful coordinated movement, quicker to use their feet instead of hucking, quicker to drop a knee on the steep, hang on longer on routes, and overall seem to have a better strength to body weight ratio.
Then our man hormone seems to kick-in, we get pimples, whiskers, and muscle mass (testosterone is proven to increase and maintain muscle mass and proven to aid in recovery from strenuous activity). In high school age kids, boys (most) make this amazing leap in power where girls (most) do not. The girls and boys are training the same amount but the boys have a surge of hormones that make them reckless, prone to driving drunk and getting in fights and campusing their coaches projects. I’ll say it again, there is no big change in training, their is a change in biology.
So, when we look at most hard bouldering we see, as Steph and others points out, thuggy movement (which, knuckle dragging compression troglodyte I am, I love), that does not favor those without external gonads. Example: I’ve seen teen kids who can’t climb v4 on flagstaff do dynamic problems in the gym that amazing climbers like Robyn Ebersfield can not do.
I’m not counting women out, I’m pointing to style of climbing and it’s interaction with biology as the culprit from why there is a significant gap in girls and boys starting in late middle school.
For instance, I play this game with the young kids where i challenge them to make problems that I cant do; the little girls who figure it out climb wretched scrunchy crimps that there is no way my thick arse can do… or train for.
Ok, now I need to get back to the books. More latter.
Don

28. Feb, 2010

It really bothers me that women recieve the same amount of prize money as men in comps. They clearly don’t deserve it in my opinion as the field of competition is so much smaller. That cash could be used to draw serious tallent from the mens side but is wasted on a group of teenage girls.
sharon

01. Mar, 2010

Draw serious talent? Like who? So, if the men had higher prize money, who would compete and actually win money that is not doing so already? Outside of Sharma, I can’t think of anyone in the U.S. that could go top 5. Just because so and so sat under a V whatever for months and got it, has established a bunch of new hard problems,and they have a nice 8A scorecard, does not mean they can climb v9 or v10 on plastic in 5 minutes with a crowd watching them.
The top 5 females are the future of the sport and yes 3 of them were teenagers at ABS nationals. You could have 30 more males sign up or females for that matter, and the top 10 would be close to the same names, male and female. Women deserve the same prize money..
Don

02. Mar, 2010

Sharon, your wrong and let me count the ways. Do women get paid the same amount as men in any other pro sport besides climbing? NO! That is because they aren’t as proficient or as interesting to watch. Is this any different in climbing? NO! In our society compensation is based on those who are able to perform at higher levels than others. Women in climbing do not perform on the same level as men and therefore do not deserve the same amount of compensation. More money would certainly bring more talent to the stage whether it is appearances by Chris Sharma or incentive for Euros like Adam Ondra to come climb in the US. It would also provide greater incentive for great US climbers to train harder and further our sport. Women receiving the same amount in climbing competitions where they are painfully inferior detracts from the progress of professional climbing. Lets face it, a girl can start climbing and within a year or two be on top of the competition circuit. Competition on the mens side however in intensely fierce. Please don’t be selfish and defend what is clearly hindering the progress of our sport.
Dan

02. Mar, 2010

@ ange:

In skateboarding, there’s a gap between the sexes, but it’s much wider than in climbing. There are a few girls that have some serious skill (compared to the guys), but they are the exception. Why this is, I don’t really know. The girls I know don’t have near the hunger to get better that my guy friends have. And skateboarding is far less physically demanding than climbing, so you’d think the gap would be much smaller.

As for searching out new spots, that’s just the nature of skateboarding, and it’s as much a part of it as the tricks. Plus, if you want to get coverage, you have to either do a new trick at a known spot, or find something totally new. It’s not like in climbing where you can repeat the exact climb as somebody else and get it in a mag. As far as girls developing new spots, there’s probably far fewer doing that than the guys.