Comments on: Grades

By: Philisophical Musings on Rock Climbing « Dream in Vertical

Philisophical Musings on Rock Climbing « Dream in Vertical — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:37:26 +0000

[...] Musings on Rock Climbing 9 11 2009 Prompted by a recent post by Jamie Emerson on Grades. I thought it would be good to dig up a few older thoughtful posts on climbing mixed with some [...]

By: glclimber

glclimber — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:50:50 +0000

Well there’s another perspective to ego…and it is looking up to those high grades. Personally I never bagged a v-double digit, and had every single V7-V9 that ive finished been told “its easier now” or “mr rock crusher didnt do it that way”, or “in colorado this would be v4″…and I think a lot of us do this out of ego as well. I would love to challenge all boulderers everywhere, self included, to not be the guy, (sorry, but i have never heard a single comment from a lady), making these comments. As Buns says, “If you want to bag an undisputable v10, then you better finish some v11 to cover the downgrade”.

By: B3

B3 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:31:21 +0000

Unfortunately I was home in the snow and wet of Colorado and didn’t do anything but catch a mild cold.

By: sidepull

sidepull — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:35:59 +0000

….
PS – Is it just me who feels screwed by the lack of a Joe’s update? Stuff went down last week – wasn’t Jamie there to take sweet photos and retrospectively wax philosophical?

By: Crafty

Crafty — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:34:27 +0000

Ironically, as I reached for Stone Crusade on my bookshelf, I realized that only 3 books away sat my “introduction to probability and statistics” text.

http://www.fishproducts.com/powerandrubber/grades.html

The above was the best I could find as far as listed standards for given V grades. Unfortunately, many of those are closed (El Murrays, 45 degree wall) and Sex after Death is commonly done with a new method, making it significantly easier than the V9 sequence (I’m told).

By: sidepull

sidepull — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:24:45 +0000

chuffer – it seems to me that bleau and UKclimbing do a good job of approximating this by averaging the ratings rather than scoring them (eg, 8a.nu). In other words, 8a.nu makes problems relevant by making them into scores for comparison and competition. These other sites turn the data into data. This takes into account the diversity of body types that “climber” refers to. So, a given climb could be, on average v8 with a standard deviation of a half a grade. This would tell you that the problem isn’t very body dependent. In contrast, some problems might have fairly large standard deviations, indicating that body (or conditions) are extremely important in determining difficulty. In fact, web 2.0 sites like these could even regress rankings by body type or date climbed to show if there are relationships between these variables. I think all of these things would help grades represent what they are supposed to represent, a marker of difficulty (not of ego).

That said, I don’t think grades are a necessary part of climbing. I do think they can be an enriching part of the climbing experience but often are not. As Dave’s manifesto states, sites like 8a.nu have only increased climbers’ collective problems with grades and their impact on climber culture.

By: OBdizzy

OBdizzy — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:33:12 +0000

I think Chuffer’s suggestion is awesome, and this would be one of the few forums (that I know of) where this discussion could happen, without turning into something hideous. (*providing Jamie has the patience and interest for the project.*)

By: Climbing Video: James Kassay Repeating Sleepy Rave (V15) | Climbing Narcissist

Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:06:38 +0000

[...] an apples to apples comparison, but it’s interesting to think about. Jamie Emerson has some good discussion on this same subject if you’re interested. AKPC_IDS += "5998,";SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: [...]

By: chuffer

chuffer — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:57:14 +0000

I believe both editions of Sherman’s Hueco guide list one to three problems as standards up to V12 or V13, some of which are no longer appropriate standards for their listed grades. Most are in Hueco obviously, but a couple are on Flagstaff, in JTree, Yosemite and elsewhere (based on vague recollection).

Jamie, maybe I’m wrong but I believe you have an appropriate audience of readers/collaborators that could begin to analyze, dissect, critique and add to the original lists, such that each grade could have say 5 problems listed as standards. As an example, somehow come up with a list of 10-12 problems representing the diversity found at each grade and, over time, a collective of folks could narrow it down to 5 for each grade up to V14.

I suspect, after distilling it down to a set number, you could write a historical piece on the entire issue, the methodology used to determine the new Vermin standards, the flawed nature of grades, etc. Propose an article to Climbing, Rock & Ice, UC or Deadpoint Mag and see what they think.

On the other hand, maybe no one cares THAT MUCH about grades …

By: B3

B3 — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:44:05 +0000

Chris, Sherman most certainly did, although he picked some unique problems for standards, and several that he has never climbed, like Shaken not Stirred and Crown of Aragorn.